Speaker A: Welcome to Sharing My Truth with Mel and Suzie. The uncensored version where we bear it all.

Speaker B: We do.

Speaker C: 1, 2, 3, 4.

Speaker A: And hello, everyone, and welcome back to Sharing My Truth Pod. You're here with Mel and Suzie and thank you so much for joining in tuning in to us. Today we have a fun little episode.

Today we have an interview with the wonderful Shaun Mazzocca.

His name is very fun to say. I'm gonna say it three times fast.

Sean and I actually know each other.

We were. We're actors. We're both actors. We met in like 2020.

We both did an episode on the boys, which is hilarious.

We did like literally our scene together,

which is kind of even more hilarious because if you know the boys, it was anything but appropriate.

It was a really fun time. I. It was like. So I'll just tell everyone quick because everyone's gonna be obviously interested.

Obviously.

But it was like a fully orgy scene and it was super light and fun. And I knew Sean had a girlfriend at the time, now his wife.

I had a boyfriend at the time. And no, it was just super fun. So literally he seen me fully naked. And yet we can still be.

Speaker B: It's very evolved of you.

Speaker A: It's extremely evolved. I just want to make sure everyone knows that.

But no, it was super fun to talk to Sean. I just want to plug him really quick and all of where you can find him because he's an excellent person.

If you need any psychotherapy or just therapy or just want to talk to him or connect with him.

His website is spotlightcounseling Ca and his Instagram is spotlightpsychotherapy. He can also be emailed for virtual book at Shawn. And Sean is spelled S H A U n@spotlightcounseling ca.

And we'll put all this as well in our bio about this episode. And if you're watching this on YouTube, you can find it below as well.

But thank you so much, Sean,

for chat with us. Mel, what did you think about Sean?

Speaker B: He was great. So he's mainly a couples therapist.

Speaker A: Couples and therapist. And yes. Works with singles obviously too.

Speaker B: Yeah. And he does or has done quite specifically with men.

So that's very interesting to us. But he's obviously,

I think, essentially a couples therapist. He does have a particular skill set in the sort of performing arts and athletics. Cause that was his background.

But he is a couples therapist. But I thought it was interesting to talk to somebody who was looking at this from the male point of view, you know, because I don't think in my Mind Men traditionally are very interested or want to go to therapy.

I feel it's a female thing,

and I feel that.

Well, you know, obviously both. Both of the people in the couple,

if.

Would need it, not just one. Right. It's not just one person who's doing everything wrong. That's never the case. Yeah. So I think that's very interesting to talk to him about that and just talk about all the issues.

I mean, we talked about lots of things and why people cheat and.

Speaker A: Exactly. And, like, I loved the.

The analogies he used for a lot of the things he was trying to explain, I think were really great because it made someone like myself, who's never been to therapy, even really be able to understand what he was trying to say.

And I think he's a guy's guy. You could tell that right away. Like, he very much understands the male mind.

And so I thought that was really awesome in the. What he was just trying to come across. I'd be like, oh, this guy.

Even I, as a woman, this connects with me too, because I can understand how, you know, he. He brings up, like, in terms of, like, how he's sort of like a.

A physiotherapist for the mind. Right. Which, like, that made sense for me.

And like, why, like, you should be trying to, like, stretch these muscles and, like,

work through your body. Like, how are you gonna make your body better? And it's the same thing of your mind. Like, how do you want to make your mind better?

Even if you don't see the issues there.

There's probably some issues that you don't see, but a professional will. And I thought that was really. It's an interesting way of looking at it.

Speaker B: Very helpful that he explained the difference between psychotherapists, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, because I think we. We throw around all these terms, and we're like,

are they the same thing? We don't know. I mean, probably most of us know that a psychiatrist is different,

but I don't think a lot of us really understand the difference. Or we say therapy, but I don't think we really know what that means or who does that. And he explained that, which was very helpful.

Mm.

So, yes, definitely. If you have any questions, get in touch with him.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I think for a lot of the guys, I feel like our audience has turned into a lot of men, which is amazing. And thank you so much for listening.

Absolutely. Give Sean a reach out, because he's a really great guy to obviously listen to your problems. He wants to obviously help and,

yeah, just help you get on with making your mind a better place to live. Because we're walking with these things around all day and we don't know how to work with them.

You know, I feel like mine's a corn maze. Sometimes I go one place, my brain, my little brain up here. It's a little corn maze.

Speaker B: Oh, right.

Speaker A: Do you know what a corn maze is in British terms?

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: Really?

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Wow, this is incredible. So a corn maze, like, they're these fun things. Fun is in quotations because I hate core mazes. But, like,

so it's like you go into, like,

they're usually in the fall,

and they're literally made out of, like, corn stalks. So, like, you go into, like a farm that's like, putting this on,

and they'll make, like, a maze out of these. And they're really tall, so you can't see where you're going.

So it's a maze. You know,

it might be an Alberta thing, but, you know, I'm sure they have them in rural Ontario.

Speaker B: I've learned something new.

Speaker A: There you go.

Speaker B: So your mind is a corn maze.

Speaker A: My mind is a corn maze where one. I'm trying to, like, I'm. I think I'm doing really well, and then all of a sudden I'm not doing well and I'm going into a.

Like, you know, I'm in a.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: I'm in a place where I'm like, oh, wait, I'm stuck. And then I have to go retract all my things that I thought I was good. And then I have to go back and.

And I think I'm really good again. And then again I'm stuck again and I haven't been able to make it out. But that's life.

Speaker B: It is such as life. But thanks for that.

Speaker A: Yeah, maybe if you guys think your brain is also a corn maze shot, I'm sure can. Can help you out. That Sean Mazoka.

And. Yeah, I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. We had a lot of fun talking to him.

Speaker C: And.

Speaker A: And if you guys have any questions for Sean, we'd love to have them on again. And we can go through your questions as they come up and. Yeah, chat through them.

Speaker B: Perfect.

Speaker A: Can't wait to chat with you later.

Speaker B: Here you go. Is the interview.

Speaker A: Here it is.

And hello, Sean. Thank you so much for joining us today.

You're here with Susie and Mel.

Sean and I actually know each other from set. We're both actors.

The last time I saw Sean, we were almost in the nude, so excellent.

Speaker B: Very fitting.

Speaker A: If you want to watch our boys episode, season three, episode six. It's a really good one.

Speaker C: It's an infamous one.

Speaker A: Yeah. How are you, darling?

Speaker C: I'm doing well, thanks. How about yourself, Susie?

Speaker A: So good. Thank you so much for coming on.

It's really exciting because you obviously, we, we love having more of the male energy on our podcast. Obviously, Mel and I are females, really, if you didn't realize that.

So it's great to have another perspective in here. And you being a psychotherapist is really awesome. We want to chat with you about the male perspective. And so, yeah, just thank you so much for joining into us today.

Speaker C: Absolutely. It's my pleasure. Thanks so much for, for having me.

You know, I remember when I saw you started this podcast and I was just like, oh, that's so cool. I like to see when friends are working on creative projects, so that was exciting.

And then, you know, just watching the shorts and the clips on like Instagram and YouTube and I was like, wow. They talk about some stuff that I, I'm interested in and I like to, to give my own input.

So. So that was kind of neat how,

how he got this set up.

Speaker A: So love that.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's cool to be here.

Speaker A: Awesome. Thanks so much. Well, we'll just get it started by just having you introduce yourself, who you are, what you specialize in and where people can find you.

Speaker C: Absolutely. So I'm Sean Mazoka. I'm a registered psychotherapist here in Ontario,

founder and,

and, and therapist at Spotlight Counseling and Psychotherapy.

So I work with individuals and couples a lot of times on kind of navigating life transitions,

working through trauma, dealing with anxiety. And a lot of what I like to work with is like performance related issues just because, as you said,

I have some experience in the world of the performing arts and in sports as well. A former athlete, and I still like to stay in shape and stay in touch with other athletes and just kind of knowing what guys are working on,

what the new and exciting things are in certain sports. I'm not into every sport but the ones I used to play for sure.

So, yeah, I do have a special focus in those areas.

I'm noticing that there's been a big need for also supporting men,

whether they're athletes or performers or not. And people who often find it kind of tough to just slow down and tune in. That's something that I tend to be really good at working with.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So when you're working with,

let's start with couples and then maybe we can go into the male side and the women's sides too, but.

So I'm, I'm assuming you working with couples right on the edge of when they're in their worst spot,

usually people don't go into therapy unless they need it, let's say.

And with psychotherapy, actually. So psychotherapy is different than psychology and.

Or psych.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. So maybe, sorry, start there, explain, explain the differences there.

Speaker C: Yeah, so I'm leaning in now because. So getting serious now, I, I do get this question a lot and it can be very confusing. So it's. I, I understand where it's coming.

Um,

how can I best explain this?

Essentially,

there is a controlled act in Ontario, and then it's. It varies from province to province and then crossing over countries as well. Um, in Ontario, it's referred to as the controlled act of psychotherapy.

And it's being a controlled act means like your average Joe on the street can't just, like, open up,

you know, an office and say, hey, I'm offering psychotherapy or even counseling. Like, that's even a pretty rare regulated term.

So, yeah, it's really just our province's way of regulating the profession. Meaning only certain people can practice psychotherapy, that being the people who have had the proper training and the proper amount of experience and guidance.

So someone who is, like myself, a registered psychotherapist is someone who is trained in different therapy modalities,

who understands what types of therapy are helpful in dealing with different cases, different situations, different issues, all that.

While I have a lot of knowledge about certain,

like, diagnoses or,

you know, I might personally know in an assessment what to look for.

I actually can't diagnose someone,

and there are certain assessments that I can't professionally offer,

if that sort of makes sense. So a psychologist would be someone who assesses diagnoses and will probably also do psychotherapy as well if they want to practice that.

I think a lot of times with psychologists,

and I'm sort of speaking off the cuff here, but I'm pretty confident I know what I'm talking about. A lot of psychologists are busy with the diagnosing and the assessing and writing reports,

and they often don't have as much time for the therapy side of things. Some do and some make time for it, but,

um, I think even the other stuff that they do is, is more lucrative. So sometimes psychologists will bring someone on staff, like myself, who will work with a client that they have assessed and diagnosed.

And so it's like there's a treatment plan in place and they'll pass them off to.

To a psychotherapist to then implement that treatment.

Speaker A: Got it.

Speaker C: And then just to kind of finish that whole thought. A psychiatrist is different in that they're a medical doctor,

so they can prescribe medication, they can diagnose.

They're usually more expertise.

Their expertise lies more so in, like,

if there is a medical condition that's causing these psychological issues,

like bipolar,

manic.

Speaker A: Disorders and things like that, where you can take medication for.

Speaker B: I always think of it as a doctor of the mind. You're a doctor, but you deal with the mind. Does that make. Was that a good way of putting it or not?

Speaker C: I like that.

I would adjust it a little bit. I would say I'm more like a physiotherapist or maybe even like a personal trainer of the mind, but not even so much personal trainer, more so physiotherapist.

Like someone's had an injury or an issue or,

you know, they've developed some. Some kind of issue over time. And I'm there to kind of like,

look at what's going on. Let's see how you're moving your knee. Oh, did you know when you move your knee this way.

Excuse me. You're actually creating strain on these muscles, which can cause pain here and pain there. So if we move this way now. Now we're strengthening this and sort of moving in a proper way.

And now we don't have that pain. We don't have those issues. We don't have those challenges.

I do kind of like that. But.

Speaker A: But for the mind, that is very good. That is honestly a great way of explaining it, and that has helped me a lot.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's very helpful.

So if people, like, come. Need to talk to somebody, like, when people use the term couples therapist,

you're the kind of person they come to because they're doing the talking, essentially.

Speaker C: Yeah, a lot of the.

Speaker A: Yeah, Less the diagnosing.

Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. There are very helpful.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Just to sort of speak on that. Right. There are couples who come in where maybe one person or the other has also a mental illness or diagnosis. So it's like being mindful of that as well.

That can come into play too. But as a couple therapist, I'm focused on the couple, their relationship. That's. That's a simplified version of. Of how I look at it.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Amazing.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Okay. So coming back into the question about couples,

we'll start there.

So couples typically come to you at their, like, breaking point.

I'm assuming couples don't come to you at their, like, best of the best times when they've just started dating.

Have. Is that, is that truth or somewhat truth, would you say? As a psychotherapist,

I, I.

Speaker C: Let me, let me. Before I answer that question, I want to kind of COVID my basis here. So. So again, with regards to being on the podcast, super thankful and appreciative.

I do want to let everyone out. Out there who's listening know that while I am a professional, I am an expert in some of these things.

What we're doing here, I'm not, I'm not giving medical advice. I'm not giving therapeutic advice. This is,

this is all sort of just what we might call psychoeducation or information we're learning and,

you know,

I'll provide fact where I can.

And also we're, we're here to have fun and have some, some entertainment as well. So just want to go into that with everyone and sort of understanding.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: That's great.

Speaker B: That's a good thing to say.

Speaker C: So back to your question.

I have yet to see a couple come in at their best.

I wouldn't say every couple I work with is at their worst. I have seen people kind of try and preemptively or proactively come in, but even then,

sometimes they've either had an issue in the past and it's maybe something that's been swept under the rug for a moment, which happens a lot, or they're anticipating something because,

again, a partner has been diagnosed and they're just looking for extra support.

Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. Because people aren't,

like, coming to you when they're like, oh, he's doing so many good things. And like, I mean, maybe they couldn't. They'll be like, well, I don't feel like I deserve it.

I feel like that would be the only time where I would see someone coming to a psychotherapist or any kind of therapist being like, I feel, I feel bad that he's doing all these nice things.

Like, that would be the only, only thing. But then I guess that's still an issue.

Speaker C: I mean, maybe I, again, I, I have yet to see that in particular. I, I don't think. But no, typically people aren't coming in at, at their best or, or when things are all well and good, which is kind of hilarious even when I'm thinking about that question.

Because I'll be the first one to say, hey, like,

you know,

it would be a good idea to go and do some marriage or couples counseling before you're at the point of, like, hey, it's either this or. Or we break up or we separate or whatever.

Be the first one to say that.

You know, have I done that yet? Admittedly, no.

And also, I haven't seen it yet, though.

It's kind of an interesting thing to consider. And a lot of the times I think it's accessibility.

So, like, therapy is expensive.

Not everyone's covered for couples therapy,

so it won't be the first thing you go and seek out to do, like, hey,

am I going to go fix my car if it's not broken? Or making any weird sounds yet.

Probably not. There's probably a lot of other things I can put that, you know, that budget towards.

So I get why people wouldn't do it. And it's time, you know, it's a time commitment and everything.

However, if you have the coverage, if you have the time,

if you have the ability to get in,

it might be a fun activity to do with your partner. Now, that said, it could bring up some stuff that you didn't realize was there.

Speaker A: So there is that. Are there any, like, red flags that you would say to someone,

hey, maybe, like, if you. If you could, like, watch a random couple. Let's say you're in a coffee shop and you hear the conversation and you're picking up on red flags of one of the partners or both of the partners,

and then you'd be like, these people should go to therapy even though they don't know it yet. What. What do you think those red flags would be, if any?

Speaker C: Oh, there's a lot. And I. And I know you guys have done episode. An episode on this, so.

Speaker A: We do. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. I haven't. Trying to think what some of the ones I've seen you bring up are.

Speaker A: That's okay if you reiterate us. Just means that we're right. So we love that.

Speaker C: True.

I always find that if couples are criticizing each other in public in front of other people,

that's not usually a good thing.

So I worked as a server for a while, too. You know, the actor life.

When I used to see the way men or women would order food for each other, that was usually a big indicator, too, because,

you know, they'd be like, well, you don't like that. You like this. You'll get this.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker C: And that can be kind of indicative of that, too, because usually that means somebody's getting stepped on and maybe not able to express themselves the way they want to. And over time, that can.

That can build and build and build. Right.

A Lot of the times what couples therapists will look for is what John and Julie Gottman, who are like world renowned couples therapists.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: They'll talk about these,

these four horsemen of, of the apocalypse of, of, you know, separation or divorce.

So there's contempt,

criticizing.

Gosh, I'm drawing a blank on the third one.

And the last one is, is stonewalling. So really, anytime I notice any of these in conversations or out and about,

that's usually a pretty good indicator that, like, hey, they need to get in and sort of see their communication styles and how they're affecting each other.

Defensiveness is a big one, too. Anytime I hear defensiveness in a couple that are talking.

Yeah. And you see any of those in public, if they're doing that in front of people. I mean,

I don't know, that could be a personal bias. But like, I always sort of came from the, like, settle stuff at home. At home and like out in public, kind of let things go and let things slide.

But.

Speaker B: But do you think there's still a lot of stigma about going to therapy? So is that's also why if you're like, admitting you're going to therapy,

you're kind of. You only want to admit that if you're in a really fairly bad place. Right. Because otherwise people are like, oh, what's wrong?

They'll immediately assume that you're at the end of the line and in line with that question. I also think that because you've said you're an expert or you talk more from the perspective of men, or you're very interested in having a voice for men in couples therapy,

that men.

Well, I can think of. My husband. Doesn't strike me they're not very good at asking for help. When they go for doctors or therapists, it's always the women who are the ones who instigate that,

who,

in my experience, you may think that's not correct. And even though the men may need to go,

they don't want to do it. And they're only going to do it if they're right at the end of the line and there's no other option. That's my perception. So I don't know if you think that is correct or not correct.

Speaker C: So I mean, I'm definitely biased here.

Is there a stigma? I would assume there probably still is. And no one really likes to have that.

You know, you don't really want to be with another couple having fun at dinner and being like, yeah, so, like,

we're in therapy. Unless the therapy's Going really well. And it's like, hey, you know, we've learned these amazing things and we've got to, you know, we've overcome these challenges, and it's been so great for us, right, that then it might feel less like a stigma.

But when you're not there yet, when you're at that beginning stage where it can feel kind of maybe hopeless, maybe helpless, and, and like, wow, what's going to happen here?

You know, if we say it out loud, does it mean it's,

um, what do other people think? There's, there's certainly a lot of, like, what will other people think?

Um, do I have,

like, what I, I, I would be okay saying, hey, I've done couples, I've done marriage counseling. But again, like, that's where I say my bias comes in. I think if someone's putting in the work to improve their relationship, like,

that's, that's awesome, right? People will hire personal trainers, and they're not,

they're not really doing a bodybuilding competition or they're not athletes, but they just, like, they just have a goal and they want to reach it. They want to feel better about themselves and improve themselves in some way.

So to me, looking at couples therapy in that way, it's like, why, why be embarrassed to say it? But then the more realistic answer to that is, there, there is a stigma.

I'm sure there is.

And yeah, people, people, men, I think a lot do tend to have this, like,

adversity towards asking for help, towards admitting that they need help.

I hear a lot of times, too, people are worried that the therapist is going to team up with the partner and they're going to get kind of ganged up on concerns that,

you know, even though everyone says therapy is a safe space and you can say what you want, you know, that doesn't always happen the way it's supposed to.

And I think media can contribute a lot to.

But yeah, ultimately,

to kind of answer your question, again, I think there is still a stigma. I think a lot of men do have a hard time asking for help.

Speaker A: It's like the shame of going to therapy and like, just men having to.

Are,

are the men, are the women pushing them into therapy really? I guess, is what we want to know, too. Like, are men going on their own.

Speaker C: Individually?

Both.

I think I do see a lot more men now who are choosing to go to therapy. They're choosing or they're realizing that there are patterns in their life that are holding them back or causing problems, and so they're more Willing to explore therapy.

It's a little more accessible.

You know, you can do it online.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker C: Yeah. I think it is becoming more of a thing that men are seeking out.

But I do also see people who come in and it's probably because their wives or partner sort of push them too. But even that, it's like, sometimes we can't see where our shortcomings are, where we're falling.

So to have a partner and to be lucky enough to be in a relationship that someone can maybe point those things out and recommend, hey, maybe you should go talk to someone outside of the relationship.

Because that's a really delicate topic to totally bring up.

But even if that is the case, I think that that's a. That's a positive. And then ultimately,

once you're there,

you know, here, and you realize how helpful it can be, it's easier to then, like, book the next appointment totally.

Speaker A: And make sure that they're on track to becoming better couple. Hopefully.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Individually or. Or as a. Like. Like as a couple.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

And do you find that there is bad advice that couples are getting or people in relationships are getting that you wish that they would stop sharing this bad advice immediately, or do you find that, like, if obviously every couple is different, but is.

I feel like there's a lot of bad advice, especially on social media and all these things people are following around.

Speaker B: Your friends, but say things to you and parents in your head and parents. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: There is so one that I think I see a lot is wait until you're, like, fully healed to be in a relationship or to seek out a relationship. I see a lot of people who think, like, oh, you know, I'm still on this, like, mental health journey and I'm trying to heal some wounds.

You know, they recognize that they have patterns that they're trying to work on, and they'll say, like,

until that's sorted out, I shouldn't be in a relationship. And I think that that's. I think that's a big myth. I think if you're ready to be in a relationship,

then you can be in one, even if you're still doing work on yourself. Like, we don't all come into things perfectly right. We come in as we are as human beings.

We're all flawed.

We always have more to learn and more room to grow. So I don't think to, like, wait until that perfect moment where you're healed exists.

I think more so just being aware of what triggers you and what.

What has been an issue in past relationships. And how to navigate that or how you want to try to navigate that or communicate that with a partner. You know, taking responsibility and your accountability for your own contribution to what's going on.

That's a big one, too.

But, yeah, back to, like, the social media myths, another one I see is that, you know, you should never feel triggered in a healthy relationship.

I don't really believe that. It kind of misrepresents, like, attachment systems and human beings.

You know,

we trigger each other as friends, as partners, as boss and coworkers, as teammates. Right. And sometimes we don't even know that we're doing it.

So, yeah,

relationships will almost always activate our earliest attachment wounds. So knowing that that's going to happen,

knowing what that's like when it happens, is so, so key,

and so key whether you're in a relationship or not, because it's a helpful thing to know about yourself,

regardless.

I don't like to, like, demonize discomfort. I help couples learn when they're feeling uncomfortable with each other or as an individual and how to sort of articulate that and be able to communicate it.

And a lot of times that in and of itself can be very transformative because it's like, oh, gosh, like, this weird feeling that I've always sort of just, like,

clenched my teeth and, like, let my shoulders get really, like, stiff, intense, and, like, you know, sort of just like, try to avoid thinking about or feeling.

You know,

that's actually frustration.

And when I can put a name to it and communicate it to my partner and not let it be the thing that's communicating for me.

Wow. Then I can find a way collaboratively to resolve this or to avoid this happening in the future.

So, yeah, no, I think you can absolutely be triggered in a healthy relationship, and I think you can seek a relationship even if you're still working on yourself.

Speaker A: Yeah, I would 100 agree with that. I feel like I've re Like, I'm not in any relationship right now, but I feel like when I'm dating or if I'm seeing someone and I feel triggered, I'm like, oh, this is something I actually have to work on for myself.

Like, and I don't. I didn't realize that until it happens, or sometimes someone will point it out because you're like,

you're taking it back, and you're like, wait, is this my issue or is this theirs? And I feel like that's a great thing that actually happens when you're just conversing with other people.

I don't think think we Converse with enough people that have difference of opinion anyways these days.

And so it is great. Especially because, you know, men and women are always going to be different.

Yeah. We should definitely just take better care of who we are,

but don't allow,

like, not little triggers,

some quotations. So, like.

Yeah, I, I just agree with that for sure.

Speaker C: Yeah. The caveat to that's always going to be like, some people are ******. Sorry, I don't know if we can swear on here. Some people suc.

Some people. Some people do terrible things. And that's not to always be like, oh, like, this is just like early attachment wounds and blah, blah. It's like, no, no. Like sometimes people cross your boundaries and,

and we need. They need to be told that things are wrong.

The difference is coming from an explosive place where we're not really able to organize our thoughts and communicate versus knowing, hey, this made me angry.

It made me angry because someone did something that I'm not okay with.

And now I, I have to, like, have this conversation.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker C: That's. That's where you want to be careful because you don't want to just be like, oh, this is like some attachment wounding and I need to just like, get over this or do some deep breathing or whatever.

It's like, no, like,

sometimes you gotta step up and communicate and, and learn when to tell someone that that's not okay or,

you know,

teach them how to navigate it properly for you.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, that's Mel's favorite thing to do is communicate. And that's something that I'm working on. So that's good. Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker B: Well, we touched on it a bit earlier, but we're so interested in your work kind of with men and when we live in a very confused world at the moment where I think men and women's roles in the world or in relationships have gone through.

You know, I think of my generation, Gen X. They went through one thing and they seem to be morphing through another thing. And you seem to be. And it's something we talk about a lot on this podcast.

A lot of people struggling with rela A, dating B, finding relationship. And then when they're in a relationship, it seems to be a real struggle. And we are hearing a lot more on our podcast in our comments.

People who reach out to us from the male voices that they are kind of ready to be heard. There are things that they don't like. They don't want this in a woman or whatever.

So we're very interested in your. In that perspective, because we feel,

Susie and I do feel there's a lot of female voices out there. Women are natural communicators. We talk probably far too much for most men's liking anyway.

So women do,

you know, you hear a lot of female voices about relationships, but we don't hear enough about men,

what they're worried about, what they're struggling with,

what they're looking for.

So we're very interested in your point of view, from a professional point of view, the male perspective in what they're struggling with.

Speaker A: Dating, relationships and even sex, the whole thing.

Speaker C: The first thing that comes to my mind when you're asking that question is men often feel like this, this deep seated frustration about not knowing what to do and not feeling like what they're doing is enough.

And that seems to be such a, like a common and like a deep trigger where,

where and trigger. I, I like, love and hate this word because it's so perfect, yet it's overused. So I, I kind of hate it. But I'm going to use it because it's, it's what we all know men will be triggered by this sense of like, I'm doing, I'm doing,

I'm trying, I'm trying. I think I'm doing all the things I'm supposed to be doing and it's not enough or it's not working.

And that can be so frustrating that all it takes is like a very offhand, benign comment from a partner or a spouse or whomever.

A, like, like,

like, oh, like,

oh, like you didn't, you know, like you didn't take the garbage out. And usually this is coming from a place of like, oh, you didn't do it. So like, I'll, I'll go do it.

I'm on my way out. Right?

But we missed the second half.

We only hear the first half like, oh, you didn't take the garbage out.

And it's like our brain hears it in this, like,

weird, like you're not doing enough. And, and anything you do is, is, is subpar. And,

and even if you did this, I would look for the next thing. And that tends to come up a lot. Men think that they're, they seem to have this feeling like they're being picked on and so, and so there, there's this like, anger that comes up.

It's like, God,

especially in today's society, I'm working and working and, and trying to do everything I can and you know, trying to connect at home and sometimes I'm kind of crappy at that.

Because I say something because I'm told I should express my feelings, but I say it wrong. So then I hurt your feelings, and now I feel stupid, and now I feel like I should just shut up and not say anything.

And that's usually where I see a lot of men when they're at that point and coming in here and, like, they want to say things and they feel so good when they are able to express themselves.

But there's. There's this fear of, like, what if what I say hurts your feelings?

And.

Yeah, sometimes it does. And a lot of times, the way I sort of conceptualize it in my office is like, hey, we're going to have to put everything on the table and look at it as no matter how ugly it is.

Because until we can do that, we're not really going to understand where each other are coming from. I'm always going to hear this and think it's ugly. But. But the second part of it is that, like, there's just a minor adjustment that needs to be made.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Does that make sense?

Speaker B: Yeah, it does. And so it sort of leads into a sort of questional comment,

is that we both see a lot of women of different ages. And part of the idea of our podcast is obviously that we're two different ages, two different generations looking at relationships and so on,

and from a different generational angle. But we see a lot of women, like, I see women in my generation, so 50s, late 40s, Susie, you know, late 20s, 30s, who want a very masterminded.

So he looks very masculine.

He's got what they.

We've coined this phrase or, you know, this phrase that you hear a lot. Provider energy. So he provides or he's, you know, he's gonna make money,

yet we want him to be in touch with his emotions, which the two things just do not. I mean, if you actually think about logically,

do not work together.

And,

you know,

the women are quite. We're very demanding in that sense. Right. And I do feel, or I think we both feel this. There's a lot of confusion from. You're like, hang on a second.

You want us to be masculine and you want us to go and make lots of money and do all the rest of it, yet you want us to be in touch with our emotions, yet you want us to be a rock who supports you,

and you want to be equal and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Hang on. What? Like, I'm very confused. Like, are we in the 1950s and in 2025? We are very Confused as to where we are, and we see that all the time.

So I'm very interested in your,

in your thought about that. If you think that you see that or that confusion or not.

Speaker C: So I don't know that I see this can.

Like, I, I do and I don't. I think I see this confusion more so in the online social media space than I do in. Well, no, I mean, I do see it in real life too.

And I think that, that this, this is a part of the confusing sort of paradox here is that,

you know, we as. As men in, in one way,

value comes from this provider energy. This, like,

I can be tough and be protective and, and sort of like,

you know, manage the home and have this. This like, masculine strength,

but also be in touch with my feelings. And I think as, as guys, we're like, well, so do you want me to be a big, tough badass or do you want me to be a big *****?

Like, they can't exist. Like those, those are tough. And. And I'm sure I'm using provocative language.

Speaker B: No, that's brilliant. That's exactly it, though.

Speaker C: You know?

Speaker A: Yeah, we need to put it in layman's terms.

Speaker C: Like,

this is exactly it. Right. And that is. That is. The thing is, like, men are like, okay, but like, it seems like you're. You're saying I need to communicate and be in touch with my feelings, but, like, isn't my wife gonna see me as like, this big?

And then how is she supposed to be attracted to that? And how is she going to want to have sex with that? Yeah, and I get, I get it.

You know,

are. Are these, these women that you're referring to asking for their men to come to them when they need to have the ugly cry and let their emotions out?

I would say, personally, I would say, no,

no,

the emotional side that people want, not, not even just women, but people in relationships and the, the,

you know, what often seems to be a major key in these relationships is for a man or, Or a woman, whomever has the harder time regulating their emotions. A lot of time it's men to do the work of regulating processing, I should say,

and then go to their partner and share what it is that they've processed and the insights into who they are and how they feel about it can be shared. So again, it kind of comes from that place of like,

not putting sadness in the driver's seat and having the ugly cry to my partner because I need help processing this, like, ugly sadness that I'm feeling.

No, no, no, More so have the ugly cry to myself. Sort of acknowledged. I'm feeling sad. This, this thing happened and it upset me and.

Right.

Cry it out and then go to my partner and be like, you know what? Like,

man, this, this happened and it really sucked. I'm having a really hard time with it. I'm really struggling with it.

You know, I don't know what I'm going to do yet.

But I, you know, I'm sure I'll figure it out. It's just like right now, it's weighing really heavy on me.

Most people, partners will say, women, in this case,

they're like, like,

wow.

Instead of getting this, like, silent bravado, this, this, like, I don't know what's going on inside your brain. I'm getting this guy that's, like,

in touch with what he's feeling inside and able to communicate it, but not let it take the driver's seat. And like,

you know,

I, I can't do anything and life is terrible and I just feel like I'm the worst man. And how do you love me? And, you know, I can't even do the things that you want me to do.

And it's like,

that can be a little bit unattractive,

unpopular opinion. Right.

But it can be. And if you're someone who's always looking to your partner for that kind of support,

well,

think for yourself. How would you like it if that was always what your partner was coming to you with versus like, you know what, man? Like,

for the last month, I've been struggling with this, with this thing, and it's really, it's really getting to me. And I know it's affected me in this way and I'm aware of it.

But like, I mean, I am here trying to figure this out.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: And then to sort of address the other side of it. It is being able to have that confidence and, and have that provider energy where it's not,

not necessarily leaning too far into like this toxic masculinity, which is a big, big term and phrase too.

You know, not looking to go out and,

I don't know, beat up everybody or like, I don't know. I don't get sad. No, I don't get sad. I don't get, get emotional. No, no. All that. There's no room for that.

I'm just, I just show up and I do what I'm supposed to do. And even if my dog dies, like, oh, well, you know, whatever, it's just an animal. I was expecting that anyways, like,

thoughtful to Say, but like so people, so many people are not in touch with that side.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Because it hurts.

And so it's easier to shut that off. And we're, you know, maybe it's a societal thing. There's no doubt systemic forces at play. But like,

no to men, don't, don't cry. Because it can be unattractive. That is what women do. We see it in media, we see it in everything.

Speaker B: Yeah. 100. Yeah.

Speaker A: No, that's really great because I feel like there is like. And it's this weird,

it's this weird balance and even I feel like women have this too now because we are,

you know, we have to still have a job for the most part. If you live in the western world, like, we have to still have a job and we're competing with men.

And so a lot of us just feel, I know I have women friends that work in finance and all these like bigger, higher up jobs that you're literally just. Your only colleagues are men pretty much.

And so you have to kind of bring out this male side of you. But then you want to feel really soft when you're with your partner,

but you have to have someone also be able to bring that out of you.

And I think the same maybe is for men too. Like they have to be all this big man at work and they have to do all these manly things, let's say.

But at home they should just want to be soft.

Soft men, like I like, I love a soft man in terms,

because I want them to feel all mushy with me and be able to talk about their feelings. Like I love that obviously to an extent. I want them crying every day on my shoulder.

Like, maybe we go to, you know, need to have a pill if that happens. But like in a, in a respectable way. Yeah. You want them to talk about their feelings.

Speaker B: Yeah, but often. Well, actually I was talking about my husband. To my husband about this today, who I've been with for almost 30 years and married for like 20 many 25 years,

is that he's a very like, tough guy, you know, and he's a lawyer and he is in the industry. He's very tough. And I've had to soften him. I've had to say,

go out and be the tough guy out there.

You do all the tough stuff out there. But when you come home to me and to the family, the girls, you know,

you're not the tough guy.

I've had to soften that bit. But he's been very willing over a period of time. Obviously, but to. He's got to understand that, and he's done the work and he has.

He is much softer.

But I think you have to be attuned to it. You have to want to do that. And I think you have to have two partners. So it's the yin and the Yang, isn't it?

I always think of the same with communication.

Generally, two people are not great at communication. One's generally better than the other, but the one has to be willing to communicate or be open to it, and the other one kind of of gently nudges them towards that.

But you kind of have to have this Ying and Yang that, you know, we have in our relationship. It goes the same about skill set, like, play to your skills, for goodness sake.

If the woman's good at this, do this. If the man's good at this, do this.

We shouldn't all be in competition. And I wonder if you see that a lot.

I see a lot of, in my personal life, a lot of couples for the men and women in competition.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Like, what is the point of that? Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, we're trying to be a team here.

Speaker B: Yeah. Do the things that you're good at. And I don't see that a lot.

Speaker C: And I. I don't know why competition with what exactly.

Speaker B: They're just in competition with each other about everything, about work, about the family, about.

Speaker A: And I. I did this, this, and this. And you only did this and this. Why are we equal? And like, we have to be on this, like, same wavelength, even though it's like.

Speaker B: Yeah, I know a lot of people who even, you know,

as I said, Gen Xers who are like, well, you did that to know I have to do that. And you did this and it be,

you know, 50, 50. And it's like, why nothing is 50, 50 in life.

But I see a lot of people in competition, and I think it's so destructive, and I don't really understand the point of it. And I'm wondering what the dynamics you see that cause big problems in relationships.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Wow. That is a good question.

So.

So first you were talking about,

like, the, like, learning and. And balance and. And being able to, like, have that Y Yin Yang. And Mel, you were talking about communication, but for me,

the way I always kind of see that and even conceptualize it with couples is vulnerability.

Right. So. So just like, what Susie was saying, like, I want to have this guy that is also able to, like, be soft with me and have that tenderness. Right.

And I think what's hard about that for men Is like, that's vulnerability,

right? It's, it's very vulnerable to admit that we feel sadness or we feel out of control, or sometimes we thoughts like,

you know, this, that or the other thing.

And the trade off is I as a man will feel more comfortable being vulnerable if I know that my partner is going to hold space for that,

take it in, not judge it, not throw it back in my face at some point and really, like, respect that.

And the more I'm able to do that and sort of get like a positive reinforcement for that, whether that's just a kind,

understanding, non judgmental,

you know, ear,

or,

you know, even a partner who expresses that they understand what I'm saying, but they disagree. And maybe look at it like this.

Now I'm more keen to look at it from where you're standing because you just heard me out. You were able to understand what it is that I communicated. You didn't judge me for saying, like,

I don't know, like something silly, right? Like, hey, like,

sometimes I think other women are attractive, right? And it's like,

as you know, my partner can hear that and understand, like, hey, like,

yeah, me too. That's kind of part of being human,

right? Well, now I feel more comfortable sharing that.

Maybe that's not the best example. But my point being,

if I'm, if I'm positively reinforced for being vulnerable, I'm more likely to be vulnerable again in the future culture.

And,

and it goes in reverse as well.

If my partner is vulnerable with me or takes on some,

you know, more feminine role that, that they're having a hard time or, sorry,

takes on a more masculine role that they're having a hard time with and that helps me out or I appreciate that it makes me happy in some way, I'm going to positively reinforce that as well.

Well, right. I want my partner to know that they're doing the thing that I really like.

And maybe this is a good segue, but a lot of the work that I do with couples is watching how they talk to each other, Watching not so much what it is that they're arguing about.

It was, you know, you did this much and I did that much and this and that. It's more so like, hey, when, you know, when this person brings up the balance of like,

asks around the house and what's even,

you know, I noticed that this partner deflects to a different thing,

right? And then every time this comes up, this partner is like sitting and looking off and like, they're not really engaging. Right. To me, that's that's indicating that there's some kind of, like, cutoff.

Right. I'm now shutting down because I don't, I don't like what you're saying. Saying, you're saying is making me uncomfortable.

And I'll address that before I address the actual, like. So, like, who actually does more work? Is it you? Like, if you vacuum, then you should vacuum tomorrow. Like, that's not always as helpful.

More so that, like, hey, did you notice that when, you know, when she brings up household tasks, you shut down and you, you stop talking and you kind of, you kind of put up this wall.

Right. You go off into your own land.

And then I would try and have a conversation about what the understanding is of, like, hey, what are your expectations for what's done around the house and what isn't? And what are your expectations?

Right. And what's important to you that it gets done every day or at least, you know, a couple times a week versus yourself.

Excuse me? And if you know that it's really important for your partner to come home and there's no dishes in the sink,

even though you washed them yesterday,

and wouldn't you just make more sense to just do them because you know that they're coming home and they don't like to see dirty dishes in the sink. Yeah, because now your partner's going to come home and not feel stressed, not feel worked up by dishes in the sink.

And isn't that really nice that now they're home and they're more. They're more likely to engage in, like, positive conversation? And,

you know, there, there's one less burden for them to worry about.

And you know, that kind of reminds me, too, is if I'm focusing on what's fair, am I doing more and they're doing less and all that.

There will always be a reason to be disappointed in a relationship, especially in, like, if you're living together,

there will always. It's never going to be 50, 50. Like you said, it'll never be fair. And that's just life. And the more that you can just accept that and accept to work together with your partner to figure out how you can make it feel fair,

then you're always going to be miserable.

So instead of focusing on making things fair so that my partner's doing the same amount as me, why don't I make my focus on taking more burden away from my partner?

Because if I do that and I know my partner is going to be happier,

and when they're happier, they're more Likely to take some of my burden away,

which makes me happier.

Speaker B: Right,

exactly. And also take things away that you don't like doing. Like, for example, I hate cooking,

and my husband loves cooking, and that's. I do probably most of the other things, like with the kids and the house and I mean, I work as well, but I don't cook.

And the fact that I don't have to cook,

that's amazing. I feel great about all the other stuff. Right. But I think you have to find those things, don't you? What is the thing that really works, could alleviate or make that person's life better?

It doesn't have to be equal. It just has to.

You have to help each other. Right.

Speaker C: Just has to mean something to the other person.

Because, like, for me, cooking dinner might be like.

I don't know.

I don't know.

It might cost me 10 energy points. I like to use like. Like, energy bar, like. Like in a video game. Might cost me 10 energy points to. To clean up or to.

Or sorry. To cook a meal,

but it might cost my partner 20 because it's harder for them or they have a different schedule or whatever.

Speaker A: Add energy points too, because they love doing it.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I love cooking. Like, I'm thrilled when I get to do that for someone I love especially.

It's like such a great thing for me. But obviously, Mel, it would take you like, 50. It would be like I would lose.

Speaker B: Drain me. Core of me. Yeah.

Speaker C: I like cooking when I have the whole day to do it and I don't gotta rush off anywhere and nobody's bothering me. But,

man, if there's a schedule,

it's like, just give me the thing that I know how to make without looking, and I know we have all the ingredients, and I can just go, yeah, right.

Speaker A: No, I love that. I want to just segue a little bit. And I know we're still talking about couples, but I wanted to talk about cheating because I feel like this is a big part.

You asked a lot about it, and I know this is a big reason as to why people go to therapy as well and why couples want to talk it out.

And,

I mean, do you find that there is.

I'm assuming you do have couples who have come to you who have cheated.

Is it mostly male, mostly female? Is there even a difference there?

Speaker C: Honestly, at this point, I might have seen equal.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, like, when you're seeing these couples cheat, is there a specific reason or is there something that they brought up that is noticeable for you, that it's been very similar. And, you know, how.

How can we avoid it?

Speaker C: So I don't ask. I have yet to actually witness the cheating taking place, thankfully. I think that would be strange.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker C: Sorry, I'm teasing him.

But a lot of times it's brought up in the first or second session like, hey, there was this affair, this happened, this happened, whatever, right? And I mean, when I know it's happened, I kind of like, you know, my spidey sense is a little more a.

A tune, I guess I would say, because it's like, I know this has happened, so it's easier to kind of spot the signs that that might be there.

Whereas if it has not been explicitly said which happens or.

Or like, if it hasn't happened yet,

There are certain things you pick up on. And I know this is going to be a really unpopular opinion. And you know what, people,

you just kind of have to learn to accept it. But cheating is wrong. I do not condone the act of cheating itself. People get hurt. It is. It is not something, you know, if you've cheated,

you did. You did the wrong thing.

Sorry, you just did.

However,

there are reasons people cheat.

Most of the time, people aren't like, you know what? I'm gonna go cheat today.

This is what I'm gonna do.

You know, if my partner's gone, I'm gonna go, you know. Are there people who do that? Probably right. But most. Most people who cheat,

probably not.

Why do they cheat? It's usually about some.

One partner is usually feeling unseen or unheard.

And essentially there's an emotional disconnection.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: And it's more emotional than physical disconnection.

Speaker C: Usually,

I would say more times than not, it's the emotional disconnection.

Because.

Because,

like, as a new parent and I have so many friends who are new parents, and now I work with new parents.

There is,

you know, when you have a child, there's. There's six weeks where you're not supposed to engage in sexual activity.

Right. So there's. That is off the table now. Can you engage in other forms of. Of sexual activity without actually doing intercourse and breaking the rule? Right. Like,

of course you can. And if couples are able to engage with that in that stage,

great. Do it up. Awesome.

But if a partner's feeling obligated to do that?

Right. When naturally, at that stage of postpartum,

a lot of times women don't want to have sex, they feel touched out, they're uncomfortable, there's pain.

I mean, I can only speak to what I've Heard. But ultimately,

it is a very, like,

common and normal thing that a lot of women don't. They don't want to have any kind of, like, physical touch, let alone sex.

They're for even, like, a year, year and a half after the child is born.

Because then, you know, you're getting into toddler years, too. And, like, I don't know if you've had a toddler around, but they like to touch and grab and pull and squeeze and touch and jump and crawl all over you.

And it's like,

oh, my God, don't touch me.

Right.

So.

So there can be that physical disconnection. But if. But if a couple is managing it well with their emotions and able to, like, have that understanding, like, hey, look, I'm.

It's nothing personal,

you know,

just right now it's not working for me,

and they're able to have the dialogue about it. At least one person isn't feeling emotionally disconnected and, like, they're not getting any. Any, like, physical intimacy as well.

There are. There are two different things. It's emotional intimacy. Physical intimacy. A lot of times people, I think, use intimacy as, like, an interchangeable term. Like, they use intimacy as their way of talking about just sex, just like physical sex.

And there's more to it than that.

Sex can be with. Without emotional intimacy. Sex can be with emotional intimacy.

Emotional intimacy can be with or without sex as well.

Right. And we can lack and crave both things separately.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: I would say a lot of time it's unmet needs not being seen,

not feeling heard,

emotional disconnection,

and just a general lack of secure attachment.

And sometimes people engage in that kind of behavior as a way of keeping their partner at an arm's length.

And it's a horribly maladaptive strategy, but that's what they do. And we talk. I talk a lot about the attachment theory, and that's a hot one on social media. I know I don't pay as much attention to social media, but I know that one's out there, there.

And it's, like, really easy to understand sometimes. But it can be really easy to misconstrue and oversimplify as well.

Right. So essentially, you have people who are insecure in their relationships, and this develops through childhood for a number of reasons. Some of it's kind of just natural, out of the box.

Some of it is through their. Their experiences as children with their caregivers. But you have people who are insecure and anxious, and they'll engage in all of these strategies to, like, pull people Closer.

And like, it can be really crazy. It can be something like I say crazy. That's not the nicest word to use. But it, it can be very counterintuitive.

Like, I'm going to start a fight with my partner because I want to pull them closer to me.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: And that's like, what does that. How does that make sense? Well, if you're someone whose partner doesn't really engage with them and isn't really communicating and is, like, emotionally cut off when they're fighting, at least they're.

They're face to face. At least now they're. They're showing some emotion. It's like there's some passion there and they care. All right? So, you know, instead of walking out the door and going to do their workout and then do this and then do that and then their busy, busy life and their busy schedule.

No, no. Now they're staying here and they're engaging with me and we're fighting.

Right. For someone who is anxiously attached, that might be a strategy to keep someone close. Well, if that's your strategy over time, that's going to. That's going to drive people away,

especially someone who is insecure and avoidant. Right, Right. That's that. Like, I can't deal with this. Like, stop, stop. Like, deal with your own emotions, I'll deal with mine. Like, forget it.

Like, listen, yeah, we're together. You've got your separate life over there. I've got my separate life over here. Like, we'll go on dates.

Like, we live together. We'll sleep in the same bed. But, like, hey, man, like, I've got my schedule and it's busy and we'll find time to get. Be together. And,

like, you do your own thing.

Right. Someone who's more avoidant is using more of a. Like, I'm going to push you away to keep you over here. Here. I'm not trying to pull you in.

I'm trying to kind of keep you at an arm's length so you don't get too close. I don't want you to leave,

but I don't want you to get too close.

Right.

And so how do I push someone away from me? Well,

cheating is one way.

Right.

And if I'm with someone who,

you know, cheating isn't the, like, deal breaker, well, then more times than not, they're not going to. To leave.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: So it's this weird, like,

it's so. It's a. It's wrong and it hurts people and it breaks trust and can really destroy Relationships,

but also it's a symptom of something bigger. And sometimes it's. It's more so something to be understood than something to be absolutely and completely demonized. And again, that's not to say that it's not wrong.

I don't condone it.

Right.

Speaker A: A lot happens way more than I think people understand in relationships.

Speaker C: A lot happens. A lot. And I talk to people and they'll have somehow found themselves in a situation where they cheated, and they're, like,

riddled with shame about it, and they don't understand why they did it, and they're just so cut off from their emotions. A lot of times people start spinning up here, and it's like they try to rationalize and justify and make all these reasons and understand, understand.

Gets very logical and very heady and. And I'll say, okay, but how did that make you feel?

And it's like, well, I just think that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, but like,

how do you feel?

Right? And I'm like, well, it's just like, you know, when this happened, this. Okay, okay, slow down.

How did that make you feel inside? Were you happy? Were you sad? Right. So many people are cut off from that.

And that's part of the problem.

Because when I'm cut off from my emotions and I can't express who I am, am. Maybe because I learned at a young age that it's not safe,

or maybe because I've tried to do this with my partner in the past and they've dismissed me or judged me or criticized me. And so I've learned to just keep this part of me, like, I can't share this.

Can't share this.

Right? And so I suppress it. I push it down. I suppress it, Suppress it. Well,

you know,

now I'm at work, and maybe one of my co workers, who's an attractive young woman,

finds out that this thing that I've been suppressing is a part of me. And they're like, oh, like, this is so wonderful. Like, I didn't know you were into, like, comic books or whatever, right?

And, like, tell me more. And I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, I've always loved comic books, and these are my favorite. And they're like, wow. Yeah. Yeah, wow. Now I can really put my real self out there and it's accepted.

And, oh, my God, that feels so good. Good.

So, so, so good.

And. And if I haven't had that for a long time, that is like, that. That's a Craving that I'll have, right?

Speaker B: That makes sense.

Speaker C: An example I'll use is, like,

and. And one of my supervisors taught me this. So. So if I said, I bet you I can make it to the end of this podcast,

right? And,

like,

I. I'll need to take a drink of my water. And you're like, you. You could probably make it to the end of the podcast without drinking your water shot, right?

Like,

I bet you. You probably can,

right?

That's easy for you to kind of take that bet on because you see me and I look the way I look, and I don't look like I'm dying of dehydration, right?

If I just came back from three days in the desert and I said to you guys,

what do you think the odds are that I can make it to the end of the podcast without finishing this water? You'd be like, oh, zero. You're gonna have to take a drink.

We can see it. Your lips are dry. You're all cracked. Your. Your skin is dry. Like, you're dehydrated. You're gon water on. You're probably going to die,

right?

That's an easier bet for you to make,

right? Now imagine this water bottle had love in it,

right?

How would you know if I was deprived of love? If I was deprived of being seen, being heard,

feeling emotionally connected,

right? All those things, you would have no way of telling that.

So if I come across some plentiful, you know,

a bottle of plentiful love, and I'm so love depraved. Deprived. Love deprived.

And now I've got access to this, and it's being. Maybe it's being given to me.

I'm going to drink the hell out of it.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's irresistible. Yeah.

Speaker C: I think I totally messed my point.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: And that. No, that made a lot of sense. And I think that kind of brings me into my next little point of just like, in the cheating world, like, do.

Do you feel like happy couples cheat? And there's just, like, there's this part of them that they need to explore more, that they feel like they can't like, even, like the, like the Madonna and the ***** kind of kind of relationship when.

When, you know, when men think about their wives, like, they don't want to do the dirty things they want to do with their wives because they're an angel to them, and they want to find other ways that they can, like, figure out their fetishes and kinks because they can't do that with their partner.

Like,

is that possible that happy couples cheat, or is there always going to be something wrong with that couple?

Speaker C: I mean, if the, the situation you're describing, I would say, you know, I would be curious about where is this, this fetish coming from? Where is that desire coming from?

And what is it that is leading you to believe that you can't accomplish this with your partner?

I would be curious about that and try to explore that. I don't have, like, a hard yes, hard no. Do happy couples cheat? Like,

I don't think so. What, What. You know, what defines a happy couple.

Speaker A: Couple, Right.

Speaker C: Is it a couple that's connected and in tune with each other and they communicate well? And, and if that's the case, then if there's some kind of need that's not being met,

my belief is that they'll find a way to meet it.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.

I think it's hard to find, to see a happy couple from the outside. Right. Like, you're like, what does that even mean? Yeah, but it's really tough. It's like, do they communicate?

Yes, but are they still unhappy in some way? Or is someone still, like, needing something else? They can't even say, or maybe they don't even know that they're unfulfilled for sure.

Speaker C: Yeah. And, I mean,

then you're looking to explore again,

why can you not communicate that need? And, you know,

if you're feeling unfulfilled, what is that? Where's that coming from?

Is there only one way to fill that void?

Uh,

yeah, I would, I would just get curious and explore that. I, you know, it's hard to say.

Hard to say one way or another. Um, but generally,

from where I'm standing, if couples are able to communicate that and have that vulnerability to the point where you're even like, hey, like,

I just want to, like,

treat you like a, Like a, a,

like a ****. And, and like, I feel like I can't do that because, you know, you're like,

I see you in this other light. Or like, you're, you're like the mother of my kids or whatever that is. Right.

I. I mean, I think there's some value in at least being able to communicate that. That might be awkward, but there. That's where that comes in, that ability to have those conversations and be that vulnerable and not be judged or criticized or, or anything, because therein, I'm expressing a desire that I'm wanting to find a way to meet collaboratively and consensually.

Right. As opposed to Just being like, I have this need, I'm going to keep it quiet because that's unacceptable. And I don't know what she's going to think. And if she.

What if she looks at me weird and, like. Like, wants a divorce and then thinks I'm, like, this, like, deviant? And it's like, well, no,

maybe we just, like, maybe I can just say it. Like, hey, like, sometimes I have this weird fantasy.

Hmm.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Now my partner can hear that and decide what she wants to do with it. And both people have sovereignty and autonomy in that. In that.

In that case. And,

you know, that. That. I just think that trumps everything.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker A: Amazing. Well, you know, we've.

I'm like, I. Like, we like to keep an hour for our guests. I know we're almost at that, or are getting to that at least, but. But we just want to obviously, like, thank you so much for your time.

We do have one more question we asked all of our guests on the pod that come in, and the question is, if,

you know, there was one truth that you could tell yourself when you were younger,

what would that truth be?

Speaker C: A lot of it would probably have to do with, like, not worrying that I'm on the right or wrong track. I think that would be a big one for me.

Just personally,

I spent a lot of time, and I think maybe this is a common thing developmentally being, like,

what am I going to. Like, am I doing all the right things? Am I, again, like, kind of back to this. Like, am I working hard enough? Am I achieving all the things I need to achieve?

Am I doing what I need to do? What more could I be doing?

I would tell myself, like, relax,

you're doing what you need to do. You're doing enough. Keep the drive up. But, like, like,

let go of the results for now, because you're in process, and process is super important. This. This is something I share with my clients, too, is look at this as a process,

and process is not linear. And it's not like, I do this, I do this, and I do this, and I get this. It's kind of all over the place.

It's kind of like, hey, right now I'm working on this thing that seems very counterintuitive to the goal that I've set. Set.

But it could just be phase one of reaching this goal. And phase one means starting here and then going down here and then kind of backtracking so that I can then go, you know,

on a straighter trajectory over here.

That's one.

Another one I would say to my younger self is.

And this brings it more back to, like, professional and therapy and even acting is the. That, you know, my.

To myself, I would say your emotional sensitivity isn't a weakness, it's a strength.

Right.

So don't hate it.

Don't try and shy away from it. Run away from it.

You know, speaking as. As a former avoidant, I used to push emotions away, try and ignore them. No, I don't feel that. I'm tough. I'm whatever. I don't get sad.

I can handle this. I can handle this.

And ultimately, it just kept me shut off from my own emotional landscape,

which left me uninformed about who I was.

And when you don't know who you are,

you don't always know why you're doing what you're doing or what it is that you're doing. And that can lead to making mistakes and doing things that don't align with who you are and then feeling really crappy about it.

And if you're not careful, that could lead to a lot of challenges.

So get in touch with those emotions. Let them out.

Feel them. It's going to be good for your work as an actor and an artist. It's going to be good for your work as a therapist, and it's going to be good in all other aspects of life.

It's great in my relationship.

It's great in my friendships.

It.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that because I'm also still working on bringing out my emotions. I feel like I hold Minx. I'm like, I'm a tough *****. I don't need to feel anything.

I'm cool. I'm chill.

And then, you know, things happen and you're like, wait, I'm maybe not as cool and chill as I thought I was.

Speaker C: Yep.

Speaker A: So, yeah, we're still working on it. We're getting there. But I really appreciate that we're still working on it. Yeah, I feel like, yeah.

Speaker C: Mel's got it all figured out. I know she's just doing this for the rest of us.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. That's amazing. Well, thank you so much again, Sean.

Speaker B: Much for your time.

Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you. This was a lot of fun.

Speaker A: Oh, good. Your insights were amazing. I think a lot of guys and women will really appreciate them. So thank you. And if our audience has any questions for Sean,

maybe we can do another pod with their own questions and. And we'll do another pod, just rattling off some answers. That would be awesome.

Speaker C: That sounds like a lot of fun. I'd be up for that.

Speaker A: Awesome. Well, thank you so much again, Sean, and we shall see you soon, darling.

Speaker C: Thank you. Sounds good. All right. Thank you.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker C: Take care, ladies.

Speaker A: Bye bye.

Speaker B: Thanks so much for listening. Please rate and review this podcast and follow us on social at sharingmytruth Pod and leave us a voicemail on our website sharingmytruth.com to share your stories and experiences with us.

We'll see you next time.

Speaker A: Bye. Bye.

Speaker C: Three, two, one. Sam.