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Episode 65  -  The Japanese BDSM Scene
Melany Krangle & Suzie Sheckter

Speaker A: You. 1234.

Speaker B: Welcome back.

Speaker C: It's sharing my truth pod.

Speaker B: You're here with Mel and, Suzie, and we.

Speaker C: Have a very exciting episode that we're very excited about. We just did an interview. Hey, babes.

Speaker B: Hello, darling.

Speaker C: How are you?

Speaker B: As always, fabulous.

Speaker C: As always. I love to hear it. We just had an amazing interview conversation with, with Elizabeth Hendrick, who's just so extremely eloquent, if I may, for the way she speaks and talks about her. Shocking, if you will, life. And she has a book, it's called Exodi, and you can get it on Amazon in our link, on our socials and below for this podcast in the description. You can go buy this incredible book. It was crazy and it was amazing to talk to her about it in more detail, too. What did you think, Mel?

Speaker B: I thought it's a fascinating story because it's very real and very raw.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: She doesn't really leave much the imagination.

Speaker C: No. But I love that part.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, like we said to her in the interview, that it's a great way, even if you're not actually involved in this scene, which I e. The scene.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: In Tokyo, which is obviously fairly extreme and most people are not involved in that.

Speaker C: No.

Speaker B: It is a story about somebody kind of living a double life and kind of presenting something on the outside and lots of stuff going on behind that and dealing with a lot of issues of shame and punishing herself, essentially. And obviously, it's very specifically related and very hardcore related to BDsm and in Japan, which is a big kind of scene for that. But I think it can relate to a lot of stories, a lot of people struggling with self worth, with shame, with punishing themselves for any number of things. Yeah.

Speaker C: I think even if you're not super interested and like you're saying, Mel, if you're not super interested in the BDSM, part of, like, that's obviously a huge part of what she's talking about, but it's not the real underbelly of what this is. It's really about her finding her worth finding and then how she did this with being tortured. And I think a lot of us.

Speaker B: Maybe we don't do BDSM, but we.

Speaker C: Torture ourselves in different ways.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: We have addictions like alcohol, nicotine, drug of choice, sex, anything, really. We torture ourselves in a lot of ways. And this is an amazing book if you're struggling at all. And I think it's so relatable in unexpected ways. It's very cool. And I'm going to read the first little paragraph that's on the back of her book, just to give you an idea of what this is about. So, Elizabeth's drives and desires have always been unusual. Beginning in early childhood, her need for love and suffering took her from the prim surroundings of Norfolk girls school.

Speaker B: Norfolk. Thank you.

Speaker C: I was like, Norfolk? That's right, Norfolk, Norfolk, Norfolk, Norfolk.

Speaker B: Only you could do that. All right, Norfolk.

Speaker C: Next, mom. Go school to the secret latex clad, rope bound, whip lashed delights of the Tokyo BDSM scene. So that's really just giving you a very short description of really, what this book is about. And personally, I enjoyed it very. It's delicious, if you will.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's actually interesting on lots of levels. So if BDSM is not your thing, maybe it is your thing and you want to know a bit more about it. But I think there's the story of her self discovery, which I think is relatable to lots of people, and this is very extreme. And when she says she hit rock bottom, she hit rock bottom. She hit the bottom of the rock.

Speaker C: You'll have to find out, really, the.

Speaker B: Book and that people can relate to. But I think also, obviously, on our pod, we talk a lot about sex and all the different myriad of what that means to different people and the complications of sex and what that means. And I think BDSM is something that so many of us sort of giggle a bit about or think, oh, that's some weird thing that weird people do, or they're all sort of wearing latex, or they're all a bit strange or whatever it is. And I think it's actually a good way of understanding that. So it may not be for you, it's not my cup of tea, but I'm very interested. Exactly. It's hard to get my head around. I think it's very interesting and you should educate yourself, even if it's something you're not interested in and maybe understand a little bit why it exists. And she talks about that in the interview, and I think that's important, to understand people, to understand different things. And that's part of our pod, that we're talking about relationships, life, sex.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: And that it isn't the same for everyone. It's different for everyone. And as she points out, BDsm is all about consent. So that's a very key topic in the modern world and certainly in sex. And I think it's just interesting. Even if you don't want to practice BDsm, which I like to clarify, I do not.

Speaker C: Are you sure.

Speaker B: Yeah. I'm absolutely positive.

Speaker C: We'll try later.

Speaker B: But why not understand it a bit more rather than sort of snigger at it or judge it or whatever?

Speaker C: Do you know what I mean? Exactly. And then her also just, like, having difficulties, I guess maybe is not the right word, but this shame around her sexuality as being a lesbian and how she talks about trying to come to terms with that and having that shame and the reason how she gets into BDsm because of it. It's very interesting. And I think people in the lgbt community will also find that interesting. Yeah, it's amazing. Lesbian dominatrix galore in this.

Speaker B: She's a lesbian. She's a lesbian. Yes.

Speaker C: But her lesbian dominatrix, I mean.

Speaker B: Yes, the details. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: Quite.

Speaker B: I mean, it's certainly a read. You might not want to read this while on the train or a plane because you might go, WHOOP. Maybe people will be like, what are you reading? Yeah, exactly.

Speaker C: Start a conversation.

Speaker B: I mean, your eyes will pop. It's very interesting. I also think I'd like to add before we roll.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: She's really written this from the heart. I mean, this is about her. She's not left stuff out. And I'd like to caveat. I'd like to say she's a really lovely person.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: And she's really easy to talk to, and I think that's important, that she's been honest and open and raw about who she is and actually holds it really well as really. This is who I am, and I think that's very commendable.

Speaker C: No, I love it. And before we just get into the actual interview and episode, let's also caveat in, saying that there is definitely needed to be a trigger warning on this. There is a lot of detail in which she goes into where it's torture and other things that maybe you don't want to listen to, and that's completely fine. Just skip this episode over, but just be extremely aware and take care of yourself. And don't listen to this if you think you will get triggered.

Speaker B: But we love you.

Speaker C: Take care of yourself.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: And enjoy the episode of the interview. And hello, Elizabeth. Miss Hendrick, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker A: Hello, Mel.

Speaker C: It's amazing to be here. We're so obsessed with your book that just came out. Exodi. Am I saying that correctly?

Speaker A: Correct. Exodi.

Speaker C: Exodi. An incredible story, really, about your life and your journey into bdsm and so much more. And our audience will have to read the book. We'll obviously link it as well. And I want to just give you this moment to tell them where they.

Speaker B: Can find the book.

Speaker C: And if you have any social handles you want them to know.

Speaker A: Okay, well, thank you very much for having me on your podcast. I'm really thrilled to be here. I've been watching some of your chats. Hilarious. I love the one about the bunny boiler. It's so awesome. Awesome. Anyway, well, first of all, I'm Elizabeth Hendrick and I'm british, clearly. I actually live in Tokyo, which is why it's daylight here, because this is the morning for me. So I'm drinking coffee and I'm an author. I just recently published my first book, which is a memoir. And it's called Exodi. Unmistakable red rose splattered with a bit of blood on the front cover. Actually, it's turned out to be a bit of an iconic cover. So, yes, book love. And you can find it on Amazon. If you search under Exodi Hendrick, it should show up. If you just put Exodi, the search engine may not show it for you, but Exodi Hendrick, that will get you for my book. That will get you to my book. And it's in all Amazon markets. It's even in India, it's in Japan. It's in all of the Australasia, America, countries, Europe. So any Amazon global market. Exodi Hendrik, my book should show up and it's available in ebook or paperback. And failing that, you can go to my website, which is just a landing page. And it's ww exodie. Co. Uk.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: Amazing. Thank you. So mean. Yeah, the book is awesome. And thank you for telling people where to get it because it is such an important book and it's such a unique story that I don't think I've ever heard someone tell. So the fact that it's something new and that people can actually learn from is huge. And the fact that you're able to tell this amazing story and how we would love for this conversation between us to start is just telling us a little bit about yourself and just telling us a little bit about the book as well. Just giving our audience, really, the telltale of how this all started with you.

Speaker A: Sure. Thank you very much, Susie, for the introduction. So, I'm Elizabeth Hendrick. I'm british, living in Tokyo. As I mentioned, I was brought up in a very happy family, loving parents, and really, up until about the age of ten, you could say my childhood was bliss. I was living in Norfolk, the UK, East Anglia. And it was around about 910 or eleven. I started to realize two things. One was that I fancied other girls in my class, and two that I had these very peculiar fantasies that I had no idea were sexual fantasies, but I imagined myself being tied up, I liked bondage and I had these fantasies when I would go to bed after Mum had turned the light off and I'd imagine myself being tied up and I'd find I needed to go to the toilet and I thought, that's strange, I'd go to the toilet and there's nothing to do because I'd gone to the toilet before going to bed. And what I didn't realize, I was getting turned on at the very ripe age of nine or ten years old. And I didn't know what any of that was. I didn't explore that until my 20s. But it was very clear that I loved girls in my class. And when I was about twelve or 13 and went through puberty and was supposed to become a woman, that was when it became a problem with all my classmates because I was never in the closet, I was just out. This was one of the wonderful things about my parents, is a spade, is a spade. They let me be free to be who I am, which is really wonderful. And ultimately my parents accepted my sexuality, which is also a great blessing, however absolutely my adolescent interpretation. And being brought up as a Christian and looking at what I could find in the Bible, I thought I was an aberration, I thought I was an abomination to God to be gay. And I prayed night and day to be straight. I decided to be straight. But naturally I was gay or lesbian. And I guess because of that rejection to myself and the rejection from my peers at school and because I had an adolescent mind to filter that rejection in a naive way, I basically internalized lots of self disgust and self loathing and shame which lived on through my adult life. And quite frankly, it wasn't until I was about 45 years old, I'm now 52. So seven years ago, I literally only just properly learned to love myself and wholly accept myself as a lesbian woman. And the journey, it was a seven year journey of healing that started out when I was on a reality tv show and did very badly. I was actually trying to launch a drink product on this new show that came out in the UK in 2007 and I was one of the contestants, which was a miracle that I got. I thought it was my big break, but it was my big break, but in a negative sense. It was sort of the earthquake that took me to rock bottom. And that's where I did a lot of self exploration and realized that at a deep, subconscious level, I hadn't fully accepted and embraced who I was. And I'd been living in denial, telling everybody there was no problem. I was just unlucky. And so that's when I began my seven year journey, from 2007 till 2014, of learning to love myself. And the last two years of that seven year journey was what I call boot camp. And that was two years as a slave at the foot of this incredibly sadistic japanese dominatrix. And so the whole story is in here. It goes right back to my childhood in a memoir. You have to kind of bring the reader in as to where you're coming from and why you acted the way you did. Basically, half of this book is the relationship with that sadistic japanese dominatrix. And it comes as trigger warnings. There's lots of trigger warnings because it is, as you say, a very brutal, honest, raw account of what I went through. And not just the physical torture, but also the mental torture and my machinations of the mind as to what was happening. And I had deluded myself to think that I was on this mission to save this mistress from her own demons, where in actual fact, the whole process of what I went through, and because of my approach, it ended up with me saving myself from my own demons. Because ultimately, you can only save yourself. You can't absolutely save other people. So that whole journey is in here, and it's really quite explicit, quite full on, quite unique. And a lot of the reviewers have come back comparing me to Stephen King as a writer, which I'm thrilled about me and about the book. The book is my story coming to terms with my sexuality, with particular emphasis on my two year relationship with a japanese sadistic dominatrix.

Speaker C: I absolutely love, actually.

Speaker B: So I think that's the key thing I think a lot of our listeners will be interested in. And I think a lot of people generally, I think, are quite confused about this is what is the significance of pain versus pleasure in BDSM? Because I think people struggle with that. Why do you want to feel pain? They sort of understand the sort of sexy, if you like, saucy side of it that makes sense to a lot of people. But what is the pain side, the punishment of you, you were mentioning side. And what is the relationship between those two things?

Speaker C: Yeah, people understand those fuzzy handcuffs, but they don't understand the actual whipping of a human.

Speaker B: Of pain.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly right.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, it's very interesting because BDSM is really multifaceted. And so many people come into it from different walks and different circumstances. And I mentioned that in my childhood I was fantasizing about bondage. So that was my conduit into the whole BDSM scene. Now, I didn't like pain, so it turns out I'm a submissive and I love bondage and I love restriction and humiliation, but I don't actually like pain. Whereas you have masochists who do like pain and they actually get sexually stimulated by pain. So one fundamental reason why anybody would want to be whipped or tied up in such a way that it's torturous. If you're hanging from the ceiling all tied up in rope, it can become very, very torturous. Not just restrictive, but any kind of pain. Nipple clamps, **** and bull torture, all of that is because masochists are actually sexually stimulated by pain. And why that happens scientifically in the brain I can't account for. But what I have heard, and I can attest to is that a lot of people who are into BDSM, it comes from their birth, their moment of the birth. And here's a theory, may be wrong, it may be right. I was born late and I had to be induced, but I started to come out when I was due. And then I stopped and said, wait, I'm going to stay a bit longer in the womb. It's nice here. Now, my speculation is that I got restricted for two weeks, was in this restrict, and when I came out. So this feeling of being restricted takes me back to that euphoric moment of birth. Similarly, golden rain, simile, humiliation. Sometimes the mother, when she's pushing hard, there's someone in the room, she just feels humiliated. And similarly, the mother's pain and that transference of pain often can go into the child. And there's a theory, I'm not saying this is correct, but there's a theory that masochists somehow downloaded the pain with euphoria. So they associate in their brain pain and euphoria, and that's why they seek it out sexually. So that is one fundamental reason why people would go and seek pain for pleasure, because it's naturally innate in their system, the two are fused together. Now, the other reason, and this was my case, is if you're coming from a position of self loathing and self disgust, right, you might subconsciously be seeking out punishment because you are not worthy, you're disgusting and you should be punished. And a lot of people who have been abused as a child or ostracized as a child. My case, it was ostracization. I was never particularly bullied for my sexuality, but it was clear that Elizabeth had a problem. And that internalized guilt suddenly became so redeemed within the framework of BDSM. When I was being whipped for the first time, it was like all these layers of guilt were being peeled off like the layers of an onion. And I felt utterly euphoric. So that's another reason why people seek pain. I mean, think of the child who's cutting their own wrists in the bathroom. They are seeking to destroy themselves because they are not comfortable with themselves. Lot of people are doing this within the BDSM framework, too. And it can become very dangerous where you have two people in a codependent relationship, as was my relationship, where two people have got a dysfunctional internal disconnect that is causing them to act out on the front in physical actuality. In reality, they're acting out what's going on in their subconscious. So that's another way. That's a second route that people come to BDSM. They're using it as a framework to get punished, because at a subconscious level.

Speaker C: That'S what they should identify yourself as. A submissive and not like a masochist, obviously.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Because you do talk in the book that you don't like pain very early on that you don't like pain. And I remember reading that thinking, that seems weird to me because that wouldn't be my understanding. So you've educated me, because obviously, I've read it. But that was something to me that was surprising but interesting. If you say, you're talking obviously, about the major part of the book, your relationship with this woman. Are you saying that most bdsm relationships, both people can't be dysfunctional in that way? That isn't what normally happens.

Speaker A: I think you have many, many very stable, very grounded people in absolutely beautiful, euphoric subdom relationships. The vast majority of people practicing SM are in a very safe, consensual, happy place. But there's another route to which people find BDSM, which is because they are seeking punishment for something that is going on in their subconscious. And I'd like to think it's the minority, but there's probably a lot more of that going on than you would hope. The BDSM. In the BDSM world, most people are practicing very safely. It's very consensual. But my relationship was essentially consensual. But it was my subconscious that was agreeing to be punished. I mean, I look back at it now, and I just think I was a lunatic, but I was seeking out punishment. Now, there is also another third route to which people come to BDSM. So when you are experiencing all this torture and pain, particularly under the whip, your brain will start to emit endorphins. And those endorphins make you feel very high. So people who are just exploring sex and taking it to the boundaries just for the hell of it, who are not naturally drawn to BDsm and who start trying to play with the whip and everything, if they go very, very deep and very, very far, they will find that their brain emits endorphins. And that gets you into this, what we call subspace. You get very high, and actually that can be quite addictive. So although I didn't like pain, I suffered it to give pleasure to the dominatrix, which gave me a sense of fulfillment and a sense of redemption. But I also would get taken to this subspace. So I actually eventually got addicted to torture, even though I didn't like pain. I mean, it's an incredible dynamic. But a lot of people find b at SM because they're just stretching barriers and they discover that there's this really nice euphoric space that you can get to. I mean, it's like taking crack, and it can become very dangerous. I got totally addicted to torture, and I couldn't get it. I couldn't get enough of it from her. She just gave me mental torture.

Speaker C: Interesting, because that's fascinating. I personally also, I don't know if I call myself a submissive because I feel like I'm. Do you call yourself like a switch? What is that term? Like a.

Speaker A: You can do both? People do go both ways. They tend to have a preference because.

Speaker C: I'm definitely not into torturing someone or I don't want to be tortured. But I also look at myself as, like, I like to be kind of taken care of in the bedroom, and I also like to be tied up and all these things that some people, I think also like. But obviously in a more, I don't want to say vanilla, but in a more vanilla way than what you have experienced. And I want to take us into, really, the japanese part of this because huge. Obviously, it's the main part of the story. And I want to start with the japanese BDSM scene. And how did you find that? And how did you even find this incredible dominatrix woman who you had this kind of, like, life changing experience with?

Speaker A: Okay, well, I, first of all, as I mentioned, I like BDsm and I just happened to meet this very sexy woman in a lesbian club one night. I was just looking for vanilla lesbian relationships and not doing very successfully because I would go to a lesbian club and I would hit on the straight woman in the room always. Anyway, I happened to meet this lady, and she's in my book, she's called Junko. All of the names in my book are pseudonyms. But anyway, we'll call her junko because that's her name in the book. And she basically turned out to be so well networked and so well socially connected in the BDSM scene. And she was actually a little bit of a masochist, but Mamie dominant. Anyway, she just clicked. And it was very interesting because when I came out sort of as a BDSM lover, I was already an adult by then. I was about 27, 28 years old, and I came out in an adult environment where everybody was also interested. So I had never had actually any shame about being into BDsm, whereas being a lesbian, I was full of shame about. So I never had any success in lesbian clubs. But in the BDSM club, it was like, know, they talk about the gay doll, the BDSM doll. I would just attract the hot dominatresses straight to just. Everything clicked once I opened that door, because it was innate in me, and I had never created any self loathing about that part of my psyche which craved to be restricted and dominated. Anyway, so I basically just started going out on the scene. I almost dropped the gay scene behind me because I was so much more in my own skin in the whole BDSM scene because I was comfortable and confident. And I started to play. And it was at one soiree at a friend's house. Multimillionaire banker, investment banker. He had this lovely party with about 20 people. And some of the hottest mistresses were in proper dominatresses who wanted to torture submissives. And I just had this first experience, which for me was an amazing transition. And I could tell you it was the 15 December 2002. It was the most transformative day of my life. It was a Sunday, and I was in Tokyo. I'd just been to a choir concert, singing carols at 08:00 p.m. And then being whipped at 11:00 p.m. My first. It was a really nice contract. I mean, I have this juxtaposition, this whole pure christian life that I was living. And I'd often be at a bar at 04:00 in the morning having the bazigious beaten out of me. And then the next morning at 09:00 I'd be conducting the Sunday school at church and full of energy, and the kids loved me and it was fine and I had a clear line between the two aspects, but I was properly living a double life. But anyway, so that's how I got into SNM, was I had this opportunity to be whipped and I was going to say no because I didn't like pain, but the host of the party encouraged it. And I just saw this one japanese woman who caught my eye and she seemed to be enjoying my humiliation. And that resonated very well in the book. Yeah, there's this wonderful, wonderful initiation scene in here. I think it's in about chapter eight or nine or ten where I have this first experience and I feel like I'm being born again. I mean, it was so mind blowing. Everything sort of. Everything was met in me that night and it was like a massive redemption, euphoric moment. And from then on, I had a relationship with that mistress that was pretty traumatic for me. And that's where it all began, really. And after that, I had another mistress in Tokyo. Then I moved back to the UK, then I was in Dubai for a bit. Then I moved back to Japan in 2013 specifically to hook up with this mistress called Tomo, who is the main character in the second half of the book, the sadistic dominatrix.

Speaker C: I want to ask a follow up question into, like, obviously you speak about it like, Japan kind of wasn't the big deal about it, but would this have happened and would you have found this love of kind of like BDSM and SNM if you were into Japan? Or did Japan have a big kind of effect on you because of that? Because I know you say in the. Of the women were a lot more open to kind of being. Finding their little lesbian in them and things like that. So do you think Japan had a huge part of that, or would you have found it if you were?

Speaker A: I realized I didn't actually answer your previous question, which was the japanese bdsm scene. So let me answer both of those questions and hopefully I won't go off track this time. So the bdsm scene in Tokyo is pretty hardcore, and the Japanese are quite naturally hentai. Now, hentai is the japanese word that essentially means perverted and kinky, but it's not quite as derogatory as the word perverted in the UK is. Or in the west, kinky is a little bit less derogatory these days. So I suppose hentai is probably similar to the word kinky. And the Japanese, naturally, are quite kinky. You watch some of the quiz shows and the crazy, humiliating things they have, their contestants do, and I think that's bordering on s and m there. They're a very interesting society, and a lot of stuff is taboo. So sexuality, being gay is not such a taboo issue here because people just don't talk about it. And you are what you are. Asians are much more accepting. I mean, you look at the Philippines and Thailand, they're so accepting of transgender. I often see comments on YouTube if there's any Trump supporters outlawing homophobia and transgender and woke. And there's usually people from the Philippines saying, come here, we love you. Anyway, I digress. So in Japan, they're very open. And of course, the whole bdsm world is somewhat underground. But you might see people dressed up in fetish just walking down the high street and no one backs an eyelid. The Japanese are very self contained. They don't look on with judgment. I mean, they might be thinking judgment, but they don't show it at all. So you could walk down the street naked and maybe the police would stop you, but nobody else in the meantime would bat an eyelid. They'd like just and carry on, think, oh, that's some crazy foreigner. If you were Japanese walking down the street naked, they would also ignore you. They just don't want to be involved. They would just ignore it and move on. They're very, very stoic. I think that's part of the earthquake culture that you live in. The Japanese really just keep their head down and get on and worse.

Speaker C: Such an interesting contrast as to. They don't want to be kind of seen as these kinky people, but they are such. Does that make sense? I can't even wrap my head around it because I've watched huntai, like, **** and things like that. We've all seen these things, and even their cartoons are so much sexier than ours are here. There is such a kinky, underground Japan or japanese people, and yet people are just, like, very straight.

Speaker B: Keeping a lid on it so that it doesn't make sense. Yeah, I mean, isn't **** illegal in Japan, but the cartoons? So the answer is to do, like, a caricature of ****. Is that correct?

Speaker A: I'm not entirely sure, but that sounds about right. I mean, they outlawed **** exposure about 15 years ago. You could actually go to a nightclub, I think, in about 2000, and you could more or less be topless. But a few years later, they outlawed that. So people would just put a little patch on their nipple. You couldn't expose your nipples. But actual ****, I don't know that it's outlawed here, but it's very much a no no. And certainly it's represented in anime, in manga, in cartoons. And there's no problem with it there. Not at all.

Speaker B: Which is fascinating. And to me, that says a lot about kind of all the dynamics of what goes on in society to me. And then, of course, the thing I think everyone in the west talks about, the rope is.

Speaker A: Very good.

Speaker B: Very good.

Speaker A: We don't go. Now, I know.

Speaker B: I read an article literally yesterday about it's one of the trends in North America in 2024, sex trends. And you're like, that's the one thing they know about japanese sex scene is Shabari. But it's kind of interesting. It says something, but I do think that's.

Speaker C: But that's what it all comes down to. It's like, how is this place? That's so kind of what we think of as kind of conservative and quiet. How is this BDM scene happening in Japan? And how was your experience with finding that almost. Was it just because of this one woman?

Speaker A: Well, so just back to Shibari. It's very much regarded as an art form over here. And people are very proud to teach and learn and they do workshops and all sorts of things. I mean, it's very fashionable. Fetish is very fashionable in Japan. So that's kind of the window, the crossover into bdsm. So you see plenty of people wearing fetish costumes. There's a whole cult of gothic costumes in one area of Japan. And that's kind of become steadily more and more into. So I think from my side, the answer to that question, would I have found bdsm if I hadn't moved to Japan? It's a very good question. And I feel like maybe I might not have discovered it until much later, but there's no doubt I was into bondage, and I would have eventually explored that more deeply as an adult if I just lived in the UK. And I would have found stuff. And the Internet, the advent of the Internet made all of this so much more accessible because when I was. So I moved to Japan for the first time in 99, I was 27 years old and I set up my first hotmail account. And the Internet was literally just starting and people were just starting to set up international accounts. And I've still got that same hotmail account to date. And. Incredible. It's been going, what, 25 years? My hotmail account. And because of that, if you were exploring at 27 years old, I was interested in bondage and I was sketching diagrams of what I would like to have done to me and stuff. And it was only years later that I discovered half of the things that I had imagined actually existed in real life. I think eventually, in the UK, I might have opened myself up to some discoveries within the BDSM scene. And there's a big BDSM scene in London, there's no doubt about that. But I think coming to Japan sped that up for me, and meeting this woman in a lesbian club. And I just feel it was meant to be. It was just one of those serendipitous scenarios. I wouldn't have ordinarily met this woman because she wasn't my type, but I happened to be with a friend who wanted to meet her. And this whole scene of how I meet Junko is in the book. And I might not have picked her out of the crowd, but my friend did. And that meant that I met Junko. And because I met Junko, this whole world opened up to me. If I hadn't met Junko, would I have discovered it? Probably soon enough. Astrid. She's called Astrid in the book. She opened me up to so many things, like she took me shopping for latex and all sorts of stuff. And she said to me once, she said it was waiting to happen, because I was describing my born again experience with her when I had my first whipping and she was there and she saw it all. And I said, I can't thank you enough. And she said, well, it would have happened anyway. If it wasn't me, it would have been someone else. If it wasn't her, if it wasn't junko, you would have found this. This was erupting in you. So the theory is that I would have found a way. But I do think the short answer to your question, never give. The short answer, is that being in Japan sped up, accelerated that process of me discovering this inner yearning of mine to be a submissive.

Speaker B: And you've talked a lot about it in the book. We've just talked about what drives individuals towards bdsm, and you've talked about for yourself. It was, perhaps, if I'm not speaking out, more shame that you were punishing an element of shame to do with your sexuality. So do you think that most people, it is. What drives it is trauma, pain, shame. Are they sort of individually? Is that represented in the community? Like somebody is driven by one of those kind of feelings? Most of the time or not a.

Speaker A: Lot of the time. I would like to think it's not the majority. I'd like to think that the majority of people in the BDSM scene are people who have proper innate fetishes and interests that are peculiar to the vanilla norm. And I'd like to think the majority of people in the BDSM scene are playing and practicing and role playing from a position of strength and confidence and inner self love. I'd like to think that's from the majority. Is it? I don't know. I hope so. But there is definitely a significant chunk of people who are practicing bdsm, and it's coming from a position of shame and self disgust and they're seeking out torture. And you do see very vulnerable people and you just think there is something very screwed up with that person to be doing what they are doing, and that's beyond role playing, that this person seriously needs help and you see people like that. I'd like to think that that's the minority. I needed help. I was in one of those relationships. My friends were advising me I should leave, I should leave. And I. I told myself, I tricked myself. I told myself this story, I was going to save this woman, and I tricked myself into believing that I should stay in the relationship. And it was the noble path to stay in the relationship and save her and suffer all the slings and arrows of this outrageous torture that she was giving to me. But I was deluded. At one point. We were going to call the book delusion because it is a huge story about how I deluded myself to believe that I was out to save this woman. And it was a delusion to keep me in chained to this relationship in which I was addicted to torture and I was just trying to fulfill my addiction, basically. However, here's another interesting learning point. It was a codependent relationship. And whether you're in a codependent relationship, there's usually a victim and an abuser. And you're role playing stuff that's going on in your subconscious. Different use of the word role playing there, but you're acting out stuff that's going in the subconscious. And if you're in a codependent relationship, there's always a chance to grow your soul, grow your spirit, grow spiritually, but there's a very big chance and risk of getting into worse, exacerbating your issues. And the way that I got through this is that I just kept applying love and forgiveness and I kept praying for strength. I was still quite a Christian at the time. And I just kept praying for strength to endure the torture, particularly mental torture, and I just kept applying love and forgiveness to the situation. And the bottom line was that by doing that, I came out triumphant, because eventually I learned to love myself. But love kind of came back to me, and so I came out on top. And I think in any situation, if you apply love and forgiveness, you will give your soul and your spirit the chance to grow, and that's for sure.

Speaker B: I mean, I think one of the very interesting things for me about your relationship with Tomo. Tomo.

Speaker A: That's correct, yes.

Speaker B: Is at the end, she was devastated.

Speaker A: Yes, I know she was very.

Speaker B: I think devastated is the word to, is it not?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think you're right, Mel. I think she was devastated. It wasn't until I broke up with her that I realized how much she cherished me because I was properly a slave. So she was treating me as the absolute scum at the bottom of her boot. But, in fact, because I endured all that, she believed it was because I loved her enough.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And that's the truth of it. It was because I loved her. But I eventually learned to love myself and realized I should get out of the relationship. So I had sort of healed. So in many ways, I got my bargain from the relationship, and I guess she felt shortchanged, but I think she got over it much more quickly than me. I mean, she's japanese. The Japanese are very stoic. She would have been heartbroken maybe for a month or two, whereas it took me two years to get over her. And it was me that finished the relationship. So I was properly devastated, too. But I had to draw a line in the sand because I'd started to respect and love myself, and it was absolutely the right thing. But, yeah, I think she was very upset for about five minutes.

Speaker B: Yeah. But it was shocking. I remember that. It's just like, that's just so od to try and conceptualize that, how you could do these things. But that's the level, I suppose, of how destructive the relationship was.

Speaker A: She was a properly sadistic dominatrix, and I think, you see, she had issues. I had issues. That's why we plugged in so perfectly together in this codependent relationship.

Speaker C: Of course, you brought it up a little bit, just with you saying that you prayed a lot. And I think, obviously, like, religion and Christianity is a theme throughout the book, obviously. And it was a huge part of yourself, obviously. I'd love to know.

Speaker B: Upbringing. Yeah.

Speaker C: And I'd love to know, obviously, if God is still something you believe in if you are still a christian woman. For our audience, it's pretty insane. You don't really think about bdsm people as being religious christian.

Speaker B: It's the last page that's actually strike me the psalm that you quote on the lot. And it's like, yeah, it's hard to understand it. And I think that's what we want, to be educated. We think we're pretty open minded, but we want to be educated and educate other people because people just don't have an understanding of bdsm. They just think it's basically odd. Right? What's that?

Speaker A: Yeah. Let me try and unpack the correlation between these two aspects of my being. So I see the ying and yang. So, ironically, it was my faith that made me hate myself, my faith and traditional society values, which are based on christian faith at the time, that's why I hated myself, because I thought I was an abomination before God being gay. And yet it was my faith that saved me. So there's the ying and yang. So my faith would get me through these situations. So where there's faith and you're talking about love, light, and consciousness and forgiveness, I think that's wonderful. And Jesus Christ was essentially preaching on those themes. And so the answer to question, I'm not technically a Christian anymore, but I try to be think Jesus. I don't accept Jesus Christ was the son of God. I'm afraid not anymore, because I think all different religions are all different cultures reaching out to the same core, love, consciousness and light. And I don't think there's a God out there who's a God of roth. I think there's a God in here who is energy, love, light and consciousness, and it permeates through the entire universe, and we can connect into that. And there's good and there's bad. There's good karma and there's bad karma. So I'm very spiritual now. And I think if you take the quote from Albert Einstein, who said, you either live life as if everything is a miracle, or you live life as if nothing is a miracle. So this is the atheist and this is the believer. And whether you're agnostic, if you just have enough faith to pray when your mother gets sick, then you're on this side. You believe in miracles, and I believe in miracles, but I'm much more spiritual these days. I essentially reject religion, but I embrace the good parts of religions. I mean, so many christians said to me, you can't be selective about the Bible. Well, I think you can, because it was written and edited by misogynistic, sexist, homophobic individuals. I want to take those parts out. I want to take Leviticus out. Let's leave the psalms, let's leave the teachings of Christ. Let's take out deuteronomy, let's take out all this. Anyway, so that's kind of where I am. But meanwhile, going back to when I was first getting into BDsm, I was still very much a Christian and going to church, and I was highly active at the church, doing quite a lot, and I had joined the prayer group at the church. So the healing ministry. Not the healing ministry, the prayer ministry. And we would pray for healing for members of our church who put in silent petitions about something was going on in their life. And I talk about this in the book, in one of the earlier chapters, I basically was at this point where I would go to s m bars to get flagellated by my favorite mistresses, and I would take the prayers of the church with me. So there was I getting into this huge euphoric state, but I was in commune with God, offering the prayers for this middle eastern guy who had been rejected by his family for choosing Christianity over Islam. I've been offering the prayers of this lady who was suffering with breast cancer. And those were the most powerful prayers, because one day I had been lifting this Middle Eastern guy's prayers to God whilst under the whip, being flagellated and reaching commune with God in probably one of the best possible ways I've met with God on that spiritual level. And the next day, I'd gone to church and quite unsolicited, he came up to me at the end of the church almost crying, saying, thank you, thank you, thank you, and gave me a big hug. So somehow he knew that I had been out there praying for him. I don't know how he knew, but I think we're all energetically connected. In my mind, I never thought that my BDsm interests were an aberration to God. They were intrinsically fused for me in this most beautiful spiritual way.

Speaker C: I love that I am religious, but I'm more spiritual as you are the same. But I do believe in my religion and I love my religion, but, yeah, it doesn't have anything really to do with my sexuality. And I think a lot of people who have come from, let's say, a very christian or catholic background, I don't. But I have a lot of friends who have this. They have these weird boundaries that they can't really get out of their head. And I do feel like, what would you say to people that maybe are having these problems with their religion, but then their sexuality? And what's the possibility there that they're going to be able to get over it or just accept it for themselves?

Speaker A: I know one of my missions is to dispel the fearful myth that being gay is an abomination to God. I mean, that myth I believed, and it made me so helpless and so self loathing in horrible ways that manifested in adult life by self sabotage and dysfunctional relationships. So what I would say to those people and even say to myself as a twelve year old, is, you are fine, you are lovely, God loves you, we love you, you are loved, the universe loves you, love yourself, you're beautiful just the way you are. And just ignore anybody who says you cannot be true to who you are, please be true to who you are. But it's really hard, especially in America and especially with all this woke cynicism that's going on at the know, particularly coming from MAGA Republicans.

Speaker C: We're in Canada.

Speaker B: Canada is quite a different perspective to the.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's different.

Speaker C: Respect is the best way I can put it, different. But every liberal country has its qualms.

Speaker B: Absolutely. You think it's 2024 and people still have an issue that they can't still.

Speaker A: Going on in the UK and live.

Speaker B: And have to live.

Speaker A: Right. There's still a lot of anti gay hatred going on in the UK as well. The west is the most progressed. I mean, you go to the Middle east and you can't put your head above the parapet if you're gay, if you're actively gay. I mean, I knew plenty of gay Muslims, but they had to be so careful and they wouldn't tell their families. But come to Asia. We're all open minded in Asia. Southeast Asia.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Anyway, sorry.

Speaker C: Well, and whether someone is, like, gay or not, but maybe they just want to be, or maybe experiment in the bdsm scene, what steps do they like? Do they go on Facebook? Are you going on, how are you finding these people? Since I'm assuming a lot of these things are like, I'm kind of underground, how would I just try to get into the bdsm scene?

Speaker A: The first thing I would say is that everything is much more accessible now because of the Internet. One of the biggest global sites is Fetlife. Fetlife.com, I think. And there's a. In most capital or main cities, you'll find a group of people meeting or talking under the Fetlife banner. And if they're not, there'll be links to some other community. I mean, there was kink and cake at one point was a community in London. I don't know if they still exist, but if you just. Yeah, they would meet in this cafe in Soho called coffee cake and kink. I think it's closed now. I think it was on Endo Street. I can't remember the name of the street now. Anyway, somewhere around Soho. But basically, if you look online, you will find communities. And the BDSM community is a bit like hell's Angels. You look at all these hunky guys on bikes and you think, oh, that's a bit scary. Oh, I'm a bit worried. And actually, they would hold a baby and stroke a baby and be so loving and kind and careful and they're really lovely, beautiful people, as are most of the people I've met in the BDSM scene. And there's so much emphasis on consensual engagement and people really love to teach and coach. So experienced practitioners in BDSM love to bring a newbie under their arm and sort of show them the way. And this is what you can do. And this is Shibari, and these are handcuffs. And, oh, let's go shopping together. I mean, I experienced that. I mean, Astrid, in my book, takes shopping and everybody really looks out for you, so don't be scared. But I do think before you start. If you're a submissive, before you start engaging with a mistress, you probably want to know absolutely what your barriers are. And you need to feel extremely comfortable with that person before they start tying you up and abusing you. You need to be very open and upfront about what you want. What are your limits? You need to use safe words and maybe get a recommendation about a good mistress rather than just jumping in with somebody who is also new on the scene, say. But generally speaking, people are very mature, very safe, safety prone and very caring.

Speaker C: Because I know the foundation of BDSM is, like, consent. If you don't feel that this is consensual, then it's not actually BDSM. It's kind of unconsensual. Mean, literally in the first, like, in your prologue, you talk about, don't. You didn't have safe words with this. I mean, for people reading that, they're like, oh, my God, how do you even get to that point where you don't have actually, these boundaries? Is that something that because you didn't have the right education about BDsm, you weren't able to substantiate those boundaries, or how did that really happen for you?

Speaker A: I went into it. Boundaries, yeah. I went into it from a very dangerous place of lack of self loathing. And I had a death know when I was at university, I had a death wish and I went to Durham University and I had a death wish because of my sexuality. I hadn't quite got to thoughts of suicide, but I had a death wish. And there's this huge bridge over the elvert river, I think, from one side of Dubai to the peninsula, and very, very high up, and it goes above the river, and if you fell off the bridge, you would basically die anyway. The bridge had these barriers on either side that were about this wide and flat. And I would regularly, when I was drunk, get on top of it and walk across. It was so dangerous. But when you have a death wish, you do crazy things like that. And similarly, I entertained this relationship because I didn't necessarily have a death wish, but I felt that I needed to be punished. Although we had no safe words, there were occasions where she wouldn't know. She needed to stop because I would say something and it wasn't a safe word. I mean, there was one occasion where I was about to pass out and I said, in Japanese, it's choto kimochigawarui, which means, I think I'm going to faint or I feel odd. And she knew, okay, we need to stop play. So she was responsible in that regard. But the having the no safe words was the view that a submissive will bail out when they're ready to bail out, whereas you can always push them a bit further. It's a bit like when you're working out at the gym, if you just work out on your own, you take yourself to a limit and you think that's enough. But if you've got a personal trainer, they're going to push you harder, which is actually what you want. So it's a little bit like that. So although we didn't have safe words, there was an element of safety and there was essentially, it was consensual. But who was consenting? Not me, my subconscious, that wanted to be beaten up and punished. So although there was consent, inherent consent, it was coming from a very dark place.

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's very interesting.

Speaker B: It's fascinating, as is the book, and I don't even know what the adject is. It's just such an interesting story and that you've come to a point of healing. You really have healed. It's like a full, maybe many full.

Speaker C: Circles can you believe that very equals healing.

Speaker B: Yeah. In writing this book, Exodus, what is it that your goal and that you're hoping to achieve and what you're trying to say with it, if you see what I mean. What's your goal?

Speaker A: Well, in many ways, I've already started to achieve this, and it's absolutely thrilling for me because the ultimate aim is to help people who are stuck in dysfunctional relationships, to help them give them hope, help them recognize that there's a problem and give them hope that it can be solved. So in 2012, just as I was starting to meet Tomo and become interested in her, when I was studying the Bible, I actually had this kind of prophecy revelation when I was working through a homily word for the day booklet on the Bible. And basically the inspiration was that I was going to go through a lot of struggling in this relationship and a lot of suffering and pain, but that I should write about it because it was going to help people who would be in the same situation in the future. So I got this massive prophecy inspiration calling to write about my relationship and to turn it into a book. So that was the calling and the motivation. And I kept a diary. I kept so many diarrheas that I could really write a lot of what happened verbatim. And so having done that, that is what I'm now hoping to achieve, is that people who have been ostracized, it doesn't have to be because of their sexuality, their shape, color, height, weight, whatever, because they've been ostracized in their adolescence or childhood, and they've internalized self guilt and safe hatred. And that's manifesting in their adult lives where they self sabotage their success, whether it's in relationships or business or whatever. And I want to help those people realize that the problem is internal. So take the woman who is beaten up by her husband. So for years and years, she's getting beaten up. Finally, she leaves him. Six months later, she's dating another man, and guess what? He starts beating her up, too. Now, these men are abhorrent. They are to be blamed for that violence without question. But if the woman keeps attracting these men to beat her up, there's a record that keeps playing. The history book repeats itself on the shelf. She has an internal disconnect that she needs to look internally and solve the problem. And she may be in denial. And I would love someone if someone read exodus and found, this is me, okay, my husband is beating me up, and I'm letting it happen. And I think I'm going to help him and save him from his demons. That's why I should stay with him. But no, I'm deluding myself. I need to leave this relationship and then look at myself and work on myself and self heal. So if I can inspire somebody to recognize that there's a problem and then work on themselves to heal that internal disconnect, then that will be a massive triumph. So that's number one. And number two, all of the LGTB community, a lot of people who have read this book and have written great reviews, are saying how they found it so relatable to just that struggle of being of the other sexuality, being gay, being lesbian, and just all that came with that no matter how progressive society is or thinks it is, there's fundamental difficulties that you go through. And so many people in the LGTB community have found that relatable. And they find the book very much like, ah, she's voicing. She's put on paper what I've been feeling and trying to say. So this is like a beacon for the LGTB community to just be better understood as to why we're in so much pain and how it manifests and why we have these difficulties and where it comes from, and stop ostracizing people. So I think that there's two faults. One is to give people recognition, to help people see in a mirror. This is what they're doing. They're in this dysfunctional relationship, and it's them. They need to do something about it, and also something that the LGTB community can relate to. It's also a fascinating look at the underground BDsm scene in Tokyo. But my mission really is to help people grow. Help people grow and seek out themselves to be true to themselves and love themselves.

Speaker C: I love that. I mean, just as brutal as the book is and how incredibly descriptive you are, and I'm so grateful for that, that you didn't actually hold anything back, because I think we see that a lot when people are writing about this kind of stuff, and it's really nice to know how to feel your words is something very powerful. And, yeah, it's really amazing. I think even though it's brutal and there's a lot of describing of what's going on, it's very approachable, which I really found interesting. You're shocked reading it, because as someone, I think is the norm, let's say, in quotations, people aren't used to dealing with this stuff. So what's amazing is how you've brought this kind of to an acceptable way of reading it and actually feeling like, you know, you and you would see you every day. Like, even looking at you now, you do not look like someone. And if I can say that you do not look like someone who might be in the BDsm community in quotations. Right, right.

Speaker A: No, I know. I'm quite a normal person, really. I look very vanilla, very sort of regular lesbian. Just sort of a little bit dressed up.

Speaker C: And I love it. And I'm wondering, I don't know if Mel asked you before, but I don't know if you have a favorite passage of the book that you could actually read for us and our audience.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: Why not have one?

Speaker C: A short passage? Obviously, I would love to read the whole book here right now.

Speaker A: All right, let's see. I think it's chapter eight. Bear with me. You can edit. Silence out. It's the end of chapter eight. I won't read a lot. I'll just keep it short. Here we go. Deeply engaged in her assault, Nozomi knelt and rolled me over, back and forth like a baker rolling pastry, applying her whip all over my backside and thighs. The unbearable pain now came and drove. Stinging, searing, throbbing. But I was determined to endure it for her. I was exhilarated to see Nazomi's pleasure, which in turn sent me into a state of spiritual ecstasy. Our connection was primal. It was not a sexual experience, but one of pure euphoria. Driven by willpower, I passed a threshold and realized I could go on accepting her torture forever just to see the joy in her face. My body began to shake. Suddenly, all my worlds seemed to converge in one unified point. My adolescent fantasies of suffering pain for the damsel in distress were met in me. The shame of my sexuality evaporated from my soul. My life made sense, and I reached a state of bliss. It was incredible. And the joy in Nizoma's face sustained my ecstasy.

Speaker C: Love it.

Speaker A: Nice. That was a good find.

Speaker C: I think it really gives people the idea of what they're going to get into once they get the book, because.

Speaker B: It'S a beautiful book.

Speaker C: Like, just the way you speak about it, it feels really like you're normalizing it in a way. And I think that's what I've been waiting for. In a book about this type of subject matter, it's very hard to find something that's so real. So kudos to you for being able to do that, and it's very exciting. It was thrilling just to read.

Speaker A: Thank you, Susie. Wow. Honored.

Speaker B: Yeah. In context of the story of your life. That's the education piece. Like you just said, I'm just an ordinary vanilla lesbian. Well, it's like understanding people are all different. And that what you may see on the outside, who knows all the layers, as you put it earlier, of the onion that are going on underneath. And you certainly showed that in this book. And I think that's what's really interesting, because people may not be in this world, but they may be suffering in lots of different ways and feeling that they've got this mask on the outside and all these layers of whatever is going on on the inside, and they can't bring the inside to the outside. And I think a lot of people struggle with that in many different ways. And even if this isn't necessarily relevant to you, I think it helps to describe that. It helps to bring that to the fore, and that's very helpful. I think it's education, and I am.

Speaker C: All for education that people need. Yeah.

Speaker B: In this day and age, absolutely.

Speaker A: Yeah. There's a lot of self reflection in the book as well. So you really understand what's going on in my mind. And I've always dreamed that psychologists would get hold of this and give it as a recommendation to their patients. Go and read this book.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love it 100%.

Speaker C: And you've been an incredible guest and so open with us, and I really appreciate that. We have one last question, and then if there's anything else we want to say as well, please feel free. But we ask this to every single guest we have. And it's just in the spirit of sharing truths today, what truth would you share to your younger self? And I know you brought up your younger self. Obviously, it has a lot to do with the book, but what is that one truth that you would tell them today so they would know tomorrow?

Speaker A: The most important thing, above all else, is to learn to love and accept all of who you are and be true to yourself.

Speaker B: Very well said.

Speaker C: Very well said. Eloquent, Elizabeth.

Speaker A: The most succinct I've been all day, isn't it?

Speaker C: No, but it's fantastic.

Speaker B: We could talk to you for hours. One thing we do want to ask you again. You told us at the beginning where people can buy the book, how they can purchase the book, but are there any social handles you have? YouTube, anything like that you'd like to share with our audience?

Speaker A: Okay, so just to say about the book, it's available on Amazon. Exodi Hendrick. It's only available on Amazon. It wasn't rolled out in bookshops. So if you want to buy it, you need to get it on Amazon. Ebook or paperback. Add to my social media handles, I've got quite a big channel on YouTube, and the handle is at Exodi. That's my YouTube handle. My Instagram account's quite busy, too. And that's at exodionarated because I read out lots of excerpts of the book on my Instagram channel.

Speaker C: And my amazing.

Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't get exodia was already gone on Instagram. So it's at exodrated. All one word, no punctuation. I'm also on TikTok. I don't use that as much. And that's at exodiamenoir. And Twitter is also at exodime memoir. So there you go. It's YouTube at exodi, Instagram at Exodionerated, and at Exodime memoir at exodime memoir for TikTok and Twitter.

Speaker B: Amazing.

Speaker C: Thank you, Elizabeth. And also, you've been so open. Is there anything else you want to tell our audience, anything about your book that you think they need to say? I mean, obviously we did a trigger warning at the beginning of this episode in our introduction, but is there anything else that you want our audience to know about you or the book?

Speaker A: Well, that's it. It's a raw, open account of what I went through. You've got the picture. From what we've talked about today, I'd love it if you went and purchased the. Actually, if this is rolled out in March, there's a special discount deal going through for March on Amazon UK for the Kindle version. Trigger warnings. It does come with trigger warnings. It's very explicit. Some of the graphic scenes, it's like Stephen King writing. But if you do read the book, and if you like the book, please write a review and post it on Amazon.

Speaker C: I love that. Seriously, guys, we absolutely, crazily love this book.

Speaker B: It's not the.

Speaker C: Yeah, there's nothing else like it on the market right now. If you want an actual exciting read, I think a lot of people are desperate for one right now. It's something interesting, something actually interesting, real and raw. That's a memoir of Elizabeth's life. Go get it right now on Amazon, guys. And you can find the link on our instagram. So we'll obviously very much support Elizabeth and her journey. And, Elizabeth, if our audience has any questions for you that come up that they can write to us, obviously they're going to go to sharingmytruth.com or at sharingmytruth on our socials, then we'll get back together. We'll do like a q and a from our audience if that's something you want.

Speaker A: We would love happy to do that. If you get enough questions. Absolutely. Or send them to me and I can answer them on email. But if you get tons of questions, let's do that. Awesome.

Speaker B: Well, thank you so much for your time. You've been amazing, and we'll obviously be in touch shortly, but amazing. Thank you very much for your time. It's been Jamel.

Speaker A: Thank you, Susie. You've been wonderful hosts. I really appreciate it. And thank you for sharing my book on your very, very.

Speaker C: Thank you, Elizabeth. Enjoy your day.

Speaker A: Thank you. You too. Have a good night. Bye bye bye.

Speaker B: Thanks so much for listening. Please rate and review this podcast and follow us on social at sharingmytruthpod and leave us a voicemail on our sharingmytruth.com, to share your stories and experiences with us. We'll see you next time.

Speaker C: Bye bye.

Speaker A: Three, two, one. Yeah.

Speaker C: Don'T get on. I'm.

Listen to the episode here

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